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What is holding back the Ark economy ?

Discussion in 'General Economy Discussion' started by Granny Rowan, May 22, 2018.

  1. Granny Rowan

    Granny Rowan Active Member

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    In a word...Greed.
    Sellers on Ark are their own worst enemy imo.
    Prices on Ark Auction are typically 5 to 10% higher than Caly or even RT, even when that item/resource is available as loot on Ark.
    Then people moan that stuff doesn't sell here. Wonder why !! ?? !!

    Recently I have bought ores and other mats from Caly and used the delivery system and saved ped compared to buying on Ark...that's just plain nuts.

    Even if you import stuff to resell here, your sales turnover would be better if you can keep price no higher than Caly+delivery. Or better yet when selling Ark resources sell at standard week/day mu.

    You will get sales, crafters will get a good supply of mats, and what they sell may well be cheaper also, so happy economy and happy Arkadians :)
     
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  2. Dove

    Dove Active Member

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    Agreed,

    Before I place an item for sale I follow the MU recorded, I would normally place it with the bid to buy out range to match that of the Monthly and Weekly MU% (I do also consider the volume sold AND I do take a look at the Caly prices for items currently available there on auction). I do the same in my shop, to encourage the local products.

    When buying I too have often found it cheaper to buy from Caly and to just pay the delivery fee. Some Arkadian sellers are over pricing and it is unclear to me why they are doing it. Currently there are less players / buyers on Ark due to the Caly Enigma Mission chain, and that should be driving prices down, but it is not.

    Would also be interesting to see who it is that is routinely over pricing i.e. is it new players still learning the economy / market, or is it traders trying to drive the prices up ?

    Anyway, now that the the Enigma Key Easter Egg has been found, I suspect many will return to their beloved Arkadia and I hope that this will help return the economy to a healthier state. PS: Uber Grats to the winner, bring that Caly loot back to Ark !

    Enigma Winner.jpg
     
  3. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    I don't think this is good advice, Granny. The truth is that Ark and Caly have different prices for each resource depending on supply and demand. They always have, even after delivery was instituted, the magnitude of the differences just decreased a little... but not very much. And they change... for example gazzurdite and caldorite used to have higher demand on Arkadia. Now they're both lower. If you just set the price at the caly price without thinking, you will very often be selling yourself short... or listing it too high to sell. There are relatively few resources whose supply and demand equations result in similar prices for ark and caly. Why try to force a false economy on the planet? I don't see that it would increase the overall number of players, and it would certainly decrease the number of miners.

    BTW, as a regular ore seller over the past 5-6 years, I feel the Caly market has slowed down much more than the Arkadia market has. In other words, that Arkadia and Calypso have different markets is a good thing.

    So why is the economy slow? In my opinion there are at least four important reasons:

    1) Explosive projectile BPs

    2) No new players arriving

    3) Lack of new content

    4) The nerfing of Ark L weapons

    For a couple of years now, there have been almost no new players arriving at the Arkadia new Arrivals area. Why? Is no advertising being done?
     
  4. Steeve Horus Manfred

    Steeve Horus Manfred Member

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    This. EU's economy really needs a steady supply of new players.

    There are some ads campaigns but I think the most needed thing is a community (and the staff to manage it!). EU's subreddit is really disappointing for instance
     
  5. Granny Rowan

    Granny Rowan Active Member

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    1) Explosive projectiles.... I agree these have in the past totally damaged the economy.. but of all planets not just Ark as they are used everywhere, and probably more on Caly than anywhere else. But the recent changes to crafting would appear to be shifting the balance..will be interesting to see how it pans out.
    2) No new players arriving...simply not true Owing to Entropia Universe initial screens it is more likely that players will register to Caly than any other planet... but.. some do register and arrive at Ark, others quickly hear of the benefit of good hunting for new players on Ark, and migrate.
    3) Lack of new content.. not true.. though depends on your timespan. Lots of things have developed and been added to Ark since it first arrived in game. Additional mobs, events, underground and soon we will also have the moon.
    4) Nerfiing of Ark (L) weps.. on this I totally agree. Would love to see Ark hold it's head high again and offer guns equivalent to anything found / made elsewhere. Would also love to see an extended range in the token trader, especially the plasma guns.

    You say my advice is poor..tbh I was not advising I was querying why things are as they are. But if you took my statement about selling things at or close to Caly prices as advice..then how is that poor advice ? Low mu high sales will often outstrip High MU low sales so maybe more work for the crafter, but higher profit at end of the week..good in my book.. The former also has the advantage of helping the locals and stimulating the economy.
    Presently we have a silly situation where Arkadian crafters are often left buying ores on Caly that originated on Ark, cheaper than if they bought on Ark. Completely silly.
    Others simply moved their crafting to Caly and just transport the sale items back to Ark.
    Neither of these situations help Ark
    What I am trying to do with this thread is look for solutions. How can we as Arkadians help to support and stimulate our economy
    Let's try to stop being Caly-centric and look to our own planet

    p.s. The best advertising for this game has always been word of mouth. MAs advertising tends to over emphasise the RCE aspect and have people get quickly disillusioned when they find the roads are not paved with Gold. But talk about it to gaming friends on facebook and other media and we can be far better ambassadors, because we can explain what makes this game different and why we have all been here sooooo long
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  6. Dove

    Dove Active Member

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    There is a "bug" and all new players are spawning on Calypso, even if the chose Arkadia, just tonight I met a new person (who was quite furious when she found out she was on Caly,) I gave her a lift to Ark, and whilst chatting in the quad en-route realised she was a very nice person, so to get her started I dropped her at the arrivals terminal and gave 10K sweat, but the Ark starter missions would not work, so took her on to the INF chain and now she appears to be happy exploring Ark.

    If all Ark starters are spawning on Caly, maybe some kind Arkadian soul with a MS could give them all a lift to Ark ? There are a few MS's based on Ark, most start their route at Ark too, surely if all these MS's started giving a free ride from Caly to Ark ONLY for a week or 2 that might stirs things up in the new person area. perhaps a free ride based on a max skill lvl of 15 or something of the sort ?
     
  7. Spawn

    Spawn Active Member

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    I might return to Ark soonish when I get my speedy jumpsuit, but first stop is Cyrene where the devs are friendly.
     
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  8. Haruto Rat

    Haruto Rat Active Member

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    What's holding it back? Too many people have total <removed> inability to mind their own <removed> business, that's what.
    Because if you don't list it at least 5% higher, markup police will call you, explain that you're a bad person for "destroying markups" and hint at different bad things that may happen to you if you continue.

    Now if you're going to open the second front, it's hard to see why anyone would bother selling anything at all.
     
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  9. Kosh

    Kosh Member

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    There is a bias in what you observe by randomly browsing auction on Ark because the market is small. If you list a resource for a price close to the Caly buyouts it will often sell quickly because it will be the only one at that price (or among few others). In Caly you have many listings for around the same price and it often takes longer to sell. So in Ark you often see only high prices (listed by people who chose to wait for impatient buyers). To buy at a decent price you need to be patient yourself and monitor auction or import from Caly as you said.

    My experience has been that things sell well here and at prices with some +/- variation from Caly prices. Of course, if you list at a high price then there is a risk it won't sell at all because demand is much smaller at those prices, but there is also a chance to sell for the high price (which is virtually impossible on Caly).

    Edit: this is true for many common mining resources, but obviously not all.
     
  10. slither

    slither Active Member

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    It's not greed it's the lack of buyers.

    With so few buyers nobody bothers to list loot as they don't want to waste ped and time only to see it not sold. The few people who chance it only do so because they're hoping to get a better return, they're not greedy but simply trying to make it worth their effort to list.

    I wrote a post about improving the economy a while back, but I guess the ark team either didn't read it or didn't think it would help - or maybe they were instructed by MA to keep markup in the shitter.

    http://arkadiaforum.com/threads/how-to-craft-a-better-arkadia.12748/
     
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  11. Granny Rowan

    Granny Rowan Active Member

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    this is the chicken and egg conundrum, if no-one buys then why bother listing, if no-one lists at a reasonable price then why would we buy here on Ark.
    However the Ark economy is not just AH. Apart from a few folk that spam their wares (usually at or below MU) there is a tendency in many of the Ark shops for inflated prices, why ? the shops here pay the same taxes as on other planets, the goods placed in them presumably have MU on other planets also, so why are items priced so high that they don't sell. Many of the shops seem idle, same stock at same price, nothing cycling often leading to failure, new owner and sadly a repeat in some cases. I have had shop owners moan that there is no trade, I go take a look see if there is anything I can suggest to help. Mostly I find the shop is almost empty (more furnishings than stock) and what they have is priced high. The few shops that are competitively priced are far busier, so we can see that it is possible for trade to occur here, we just need to see how we can make it thrive and expand, to the benefit of us all.

    So rather than keep disagreeing with each other on 'if / what / why' the Ark economy is depressed, lets hear some ideas on what we can do to reverse the trend..

    The Bp ideas in your post certainly have some interesting ideas, but I suspect the stumbling block for any new designs would be MA, especially for skillers that stand aside from normal crafting. These would doubtless impact the incomes they have generated for themselves through for instance EP crafting.
    TT to TT skillers should be avoided as these simply create gamblers rather than crafters.

    A range of skillers that have a purpose and would therefore hopefully attract some MU, or at least skill rewards/boosts based on mission chains as you suggested.
    Why doesn't crafting have mission chains like other professions ? Maybe this is something Ark Devs could look at.

    MU is in the hands of players (buyers as well as sellers) not MA..this is one place we can leave our mark without interference, so try to avoid selling way below MU as this just drags price down for everyone, but also consider whether your high MU is strangling the Ark economy. We have the ability to work together for change, to support each other and help Ark grow

    Let's hear some positive ideas, and maybe the Devs will be more receptive.
     
  12. slither

    slither Active Member

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    That's kinda like saying hunting should be avoided except in events.

    Crafters need to get skills from somewhere, and craft skills go up so slowly that anyone only crafting items to sell would never get anywhere in this game.


    Asking people to price things one way or another simply won't work, supply and demand is all that counts. If people aren't selling at high prices they'll either lower them or not sell at all.

    There are many ways to effect the economy but 'price fixing' isn't one of them.
     
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  13. mastermesh

    mastermesh Active Member

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    Shops on Ark generally cost more than on other planets per item point for some reason or the other... Been that way a few years... not sure if shop owners are trying to calculate that in to their daily activity but some may?

    As for ideas... on improving economy... I believe you run a mothership... In ancient days, before space, ship owners were one of the main hubs of trade... as they were one of the few individuals that could actually profit by moving goods from one place to another. Seems like you got the ability to improve things, and a willingness to make some changes, so hop to it, lol. (easier said than done, I know, but a global interplanet trade consortium that can do things cheaper than auction might work well.)
     
  14. Sionkiewicz

    Sionkiewicz Member

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    No, that is not what she is saying. What she is describing are the EP Crafters who go to the TT machine, buy all the items needed to run their EP BP, run the BP in hopes of hitting a HOF, and then go back to the TT machine and TT the resulting materials for the Ped. Rinse and Repeat.

    Since nether the material nor the product make it into another's hands, she properly termed it TT to TT. This does nothing for the EU economy and should not be encouraged.

    Getting crafting skills can also be obtained from Repair Skilling but I agree that skilling crafting is not something that can be done easily. That is pretty much the same for all professions though with Beauty and Coloring being the most expensive IMHO.

    I don't think she is asking people to price fix. She is just saying that if you place your price higher that Caly AH plus the shipping fee, don't expect it to sell because people will go for the Caly product. It is helpful advise and could actually help some to understand this aspect of the EU Economy.
     
  15. slither

    slither Active Member

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    Yeah, I read that 'tt to tt crafting' part wrong. I'm talking about crafting things from ores and throwing the results into the TT machine. This is an essential part of crafting in order to gain skills, but crafters need an added incentive (in the way of BP drops, missions etc) in the same way a hunter has missions and markup loot drops etc to help them with their grinding.

    As for the 'price fixing', I'm sure you don't need to advise people how to price stuff. It either sells or it doesn't, and if it doesn't then people will adjust their prices.
     
  16. mastermesh

    mastermesh Active Member

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    on pcf there's been many, many discussions on how to 'fix' the explosives issues. I still think the idea of not allowing explosive ammo to be TTed is the way to go... You want to go use that grenade launcher and make a bunch of ep, go for it, but better be ready to actually pull the trigger, not just the slot machine handle.
     
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  17. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    But the problem is it's simply not true. Certain minerals I always list higher on Ark than Caly, and they (almost) always sell because I know what the natural Ark MUs are. Certain minerals I have to list lower on Ark than Caly if I want to sell them here, because they have a lower natural MU. Certain minerals are hard to sell on Caly; certain ones are hard to sell on Ark. Some Caly minerals are easier to sell on Ark. Since EPs, there aren't any Ark-native resources that sell better on Caly. There's no blanket statement about MU you can make that applies to all resources, they each have their own supply and demand which are different on every planet.

    The best thing you can do, if you want to make sales, is to learn how to read the auction. Search for a resource, then sort by buyout so the lowest are at the top. Then look at how old each listing is. The spread of dates and prices tells you many things... If the lowest auctions are several days old, then you may have trouble selling at that price. It can tell you whether the price has been going down, or whether a spike just occurred. If there are enough resources, it can even tell you whether smaller quantities sell for more, and what's the biggest lot that people want to buy. And more.

    It also helps if you sell regularly, because trial and error gives you important information. For instance, being able to identify which resources have binge buyers who log in every week and will buy everything up to + 10% above the "normal" markup. This happens on both planets.

    Also keep in mind that the official MU window only shows the average for all planets (though for some reason it doesn't show all sales) so it is helpful but not authoritative when selling resources on other planets.
     
  18. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    That would probably work.

    This really needs to be fixed.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  19. Granny Rowan

    Granny Rowan Active Member

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    I have not at any point suggested price fixing, I neither consider that a good option nor workable.
    What I commented on is that I have heard some shop owners moan about lack of sales and suggested that they should consider if their shop is sufficiently stocked for a buyer to stay and browse (as opposed to almost empty), and that if prices are too high then people will buy elsewhere.
    Shops that are well laid out also tend to attract a customer to stay and look around, be honest how often in game or even in RL have you looked into a shop that is a mess and just walked out.

    Yes I have a ship which is primarily used for VSE skill runs to assist crafters with another (more social) option to just bashing out cheap BP clicks, and yes I offer inexpensive daily warp schedule, so I already help crafters and traders as much as I can. I craft for 4 shops as well and in those odd spare moments still enjoy hunting mining and playing the game

    I am not here to run my account as an e-business, though some may, and GL to them, and I have neither the time, the knowledge nor the will to run a global alternative to trading as we know it. I am by no means the only MS owner in game, and a long way from the richest or most business oriented, so I am sure this possibility has been looked at by some and deemed far to large a can of worms to even consider opening it.

    My OP was deliberately provocative to try and get people not just talking but also to look at what they can do to help Ark.
    Many of you do help, tbh the names I see here are pretty much those I see helping people daily. It is noticeable those I have heard whine about Ark economy and lack of sales are actually not here, let us hope they have at least read it and has given them food for thought,
    There is no single solution, no right way or wrong, but there is room for improvement. So please keep the ideas flowing
     
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  20. Spawn

    Spawn Active Member

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    I dont want to help Ark. I want Ark to be independant, and have a vibrant economy.
    It can happen. Ark was on its way to becoming a real alternative. Ark has got better shops than caly. Ark has the second best auction house.
    What ark doesn't have is developers that still care. They are off into other ventures, testing some other games etc.
    Ark needs developers to develop and focus on the game.
     
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