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Weapons Manufacturing Economy

Discussion in 'Crafting' started by CLERIC, Aug 14, 2011.

  1. CLERIC

    CLERIC Member

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    Those of you who know me within the community, know that I was providing Arkadian weapons on the TT+1 and second tier level prior to the recent VU, in order to supply newer players with progressive skilling chains to continue their growth. There have been some changes that will no longer allow me to continue this service.

    Here is why.

    I will use an example, a TT+1 weapon, to display the new economy of these Blueprints. However, these cost increases are evident in all levels of weapon manufacturing, it would take too long to display them all, please reference Entropedia for further information.

    Herman ASI-10 Desert (L) [Pre VU]
    -Erdorium Ingot x1
    -Fire Root Pellet x2
    -Weak Magnets x2
    -Cumbriz Ingot x3
    -Animal Adrenal Oil x10

    Economy: 5.99 TT / 7.04 AVG MU / COST 117% per click
    Return: 35 PED TT / 41-43 MU

    So, on a mid level skill base, a success rate of 40%, without residue, I was able to generate a return of 80% between average production condition of 15-20% for TT return and a rate of 20% on 100% condition item resale. Results varying based on Global returns and condition success, but on average i was able to break even or make a small profit with the addition of residues.

    No let's look at the same BP post-VU:

    Herman ASI-10 Desert (L) [post-vu]
    -Weak Magnets x2
    -Veda Ingot x7
    -Animal Adrenal Oil x16
    -Ospra Ingot x22 (Yes, 22 ospra per click)


    Economy: 6.02 TT / 9.02 AVG MU / Cost 167% per click
    Return: 35 PED TT / 41-43 MU ( Exactly the same pre-VU)

    So what we are seeing is a 50% cost increase per click post-vu now that the mats have been changed to Arkadia materials. However, absolutely no change to the return values. What does this mean? It means that my costs to produce this weapon have lowered my profit margin so significantly, that it is impossible for me to see any type of return for making these weapons. I now manufacter at a significant loss, even though i typically global twice per 200 clicks.


    Now, before the regular Nay-sayers and Negative responders begin their responses, I want to make a few things clear. I absolutely realise that PROFESSION levels apply when you consider returns, based on the CONDITION of a successful product. This can be substituted by the introduction of Residues , but at a cost for the residues.

    My purpose in this information is not meant to be detrimental to Arkadia, I am simply making an awareness for other Weapons Manufacturers that are gaining their skillups through this economy. Not all of us are UBER.


    I, unfortunately, will not be able to continue to provide these TT+1 weapons to the market due to the significant loss I now receive because of the large requirements of materials per click, and the increase of cost per click. I didnt mind taking small losses sometimes to make these weapons available, but I will NOT produce them at large cost to myself, the economy of it no longer makes sense.


    Other manufactuerers, if you have additional information, please attach your findings.


    cheers.
     
  2. bass

    bass Member

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    MU on ores on Arkadia is too high generally, this is a fact. And here is a miner talking. I think an effort should be done by us miners providing materials at decent MU... and not overcharging. I will surely try myself (and those I directly trade with know I do), but we all need to do something to get economy going up here.
     
  3. XeroX

    XeroX Active Member Pro Users

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    I have only 60 LT left to kill afterwards I will head to Arkadia for mining. I will make a mining log here and also put my find up for sale. Everything I get will be sold on Arkadia so I hope that will help the economy some since I usually sell quite a bit below going MU in private trades. I will also bring like 10k ped to make sure I can sell reasonable stack sizes and not just stuff for 3 clicks. :cool:
     
  4. Divinity

    Divinity Member

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    Very good initiative. For those miners who sell at ores/enmatter at reasonable rates, do pm me as i plan on crafting here going forward and buy reasonably large stacks.
     
  5. Chuck Jarrdhead Wholrey

    Chuck Jarrdhead Wholrey Active Member

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    The MU rate on resources is too high to sustain more than a few crafters, I have purchased down the AU too many times, and caused the rates to skyrocket, due to no resources available... Ark needs more miners.... but please stick with the weekly rates.... and try to be decent with the prices. One crafter can buyout 3 whole resources easily from the AU, but the rates dont need to jump, then the crafter will not be able to afford to return.... its a careful balance, and as ARK grows there will be more challenges to face, hopefully good choices are made 8)
     
  6. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Well that is part of the problem with the mining...the avg miner does NOT get large stacks. Altho it has gotten better in past VU's there are STILL too many resources in single areas.

    Frankly I get tired of begging for people to buy my stuff and having to track all over to find someone to use it. I refuse to use the auction simply becase it is just another bite outta my ass as a reward for being a long term player supporting all the high dollar depositors. Having to put 3 to 12 ped stacks on an auction is simply bullshit and bad buisness.

    Add to the fact crafters only want certain ores and ens kills what a miner can recover so we are forced to sell those wanted items higher.

    So that being said.. when MA gets off their fat asses and changes mining so we get a more fair share of sellable materials and not 90% usless not used materials and decent quantities of useful materials prices will remain high. Its a vicious circle and MA knows this. Its all in the master plan to keep their interest protected.
     
  7. Chuck Jarrdhead Wholrey

    Chuck Jarrdhead Wholrey Active Member

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    I love small stacks on the AU.... most of the time you just need a little of something to keep going... as long as the MU is low, its useful... for the smaller crafter, larger stacks can be tough to plan for.... all just depends on whats out there for the day 8)
     
  8. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    If you look at the market trends.. the small stacks are put up for the crackhead Markups which is what forces MU higher.. the larger stacks usually follw more closely the real market value. Sadly too many here believe they can get rich quick as I have yet to see more then 5 items within reason of the weekly or daily MU.. most offers start at well over 10% above the avg MU and BO's are in the "I have mental issues" ranges on too many things.

    On the other hand the peer to peer traders are nutbags as well as they are WAY undercutting things AND they get picky about what they are buying. So I feel bad for the Arkadian economy because as it stands greed from EVEY direction is draging it down and keeping the growth rate low and slow.

    On Caly the normal traders run around 3% below avg MU to cover auct fees not 10 to 15% like here. Anyway you all do what ya want but know its yourselves that is killing the economy at this point.


    For example.. basic leather extractors should be at 105% at best.. because of the new Arkadian skins people are skilling more on textures and the market price is at 115 to 116%. I looked to buy a few and try texturing for fast skills to complete discipleship and the lowest starting offer I saw was 125%.... I have no words for that kind of behavior...I have many many names to use but nothing to say. I am just amazed of how sad and pathetic that is. Obviously there are too may people who have no clue how the market should work along with people who have issues of MA syndrone with the greed.
     
  9. zume

    zume Active Member Pro Users

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    I dont have much to say besides the fact that you are wrong about the BLE Cyborg.. yes they should be 105% on Calypso where they drop like flies to the ground, but since Arkadia DO NOT loot any leather extractors, a 120% MU is reasonable imo.. Both to cover import costs and risks, but its also (imo) fair for the buyer since it isnt looted on Arkadia.. You cannot compare Ark prices to any other planet (in general) because each and every thing in this game drops differently on each planet and the demands on each planet are different too..

    What we need is the MU window to be separated into planet specific MU and an overall MU.. MU should pr default be shown for the planet you are currently on. In case of being in space, it should either be the MU of the planet closest to you OR the overall MU that is shown as default..

    Remember Cyborg.. Supply and Demand is the keyword.. Natural supply of BLE on Ark = None existant, while demand for BLE = HIGH.. natually that will cause MU of such no-supply item to be higher then..
     
  10. KMax

    KMax Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Simple solution, you see something to high don't buy. It is that simple, everyone has the right to ask for whatever amount they want for their items, it is up to you if you want to pay that amount. Many times I see what I would like but don't buy because price is way to high but I don't complain it is their right to ask for whatever amount they want. Most likely to high means MA and PP make auction house fees multiple times because of no sales, they are not going to regulate this they are making money. Everyone can go get any item themselves no one is forced to buy from the auction house. There is no reason to ever complain about what people put in the auction house or ask for any markup, it is their stuff after all. Besides in your example those leather extractors are actually selling at those markups which means that markup is exactly where it is suppose to be, if no one is buying then it is to high. As long as one person is buying that means there is demand in the market for that price and the markup is where it most likely should be.

    Same type of price gouging goes on in RL also, only difference is sometimes the government steps in to regulate it, so it will not start a civil unrest in the country, IE price gouging on fuel, companys still try to do it and when it starts to cause and outcry the regulators step in. The difference here is this is a virtual universe and I don't know how a civil unrest could start in here.
     
  11. aj502

    aj502 Active Member Pro Users

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    Bill, you're an oldtimer.
    You should know that smaller stacks (should?) always be listed at far higher MU.

    As far as peer to peer, it's basically the same here as it is there.
    EX: I am in search of a specific gun atm but the only offer I got was a bit high imo so I had to decline (as I can get a comparible gun for less...).
    But other items I buy, some ask too high and I again decline, but have no problem getting from somewhere else and I can personally wait for a good price.
    ...Beit Lyst, a Jori/Oro BP (I'll get one dropped sooner or later), some Acid Root, Basic Stone/Leather Exts or even a Law 202 Arctic (hint-hint :D ).
    Doesn't matter, I don't NEED it "right now" - My ava won't go "poof" and dissapear if I don't get it ASAP, so I wait for a good price.

    To hit on CLERIC's situation, it's really too bad as it appears some tried (are trying?) to inflate prices some. Sux as CLERIC was more than anything helping than making any profit.
    Maybe I can help find the mats at a good price? (I don't think we've met...)
    But it really boils down to simply patience and only buying at fair prices (very subjective, ofc).

    The way I see it as a new planet, I'm knowing who's buying and selling at fair prices and more or less creating a network of "go to" people for many different things I'd like to think that some know they can go to me as well because they know I won't gouge anyone.
    I also take note on who isn't. (Yea, I stare at auction sometimes - it's FREE! :D )
    Hopefully in the long run it'll "pay off" by having many different options of fair traders in the future like I created on Caly when I 1st started.

    Hell, "they" can sell a few say, "Snorgifliyers" for lame MU and have a nice margin, yea?
    I can sell a hundred for 1/2 margin and look fair and get more biz - who'll make more profit?

    Turn it around:
    I'll buy one "flipschindit" from you once for a lame MU, but I'll find someone else in my network who'll supply me for better.
    "They" got one sale from me, the latter gets the rest.
    Who gets more business?

    It's not like you cannot tell who's here playing the MU game, scraping for every pec and who's here for the planet or the long term (so to speak).
    We all want to make a ped or two, but it's easy to see who wants to make it all at once.

    Simple math should determine an area of a fair price, anything more, just wait.
    ....Unless one CANNOT wait, then of course you'll be paying the shit price.

    The market itself is the easy part...It's the "doing without" that isn't. Some can, some cannot.







    Was that THAT far off topic? Hmmmm....

    Tippin'
     
  12. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Just Wow....

    I am truely amazed at how blind some people can be. Out of all the people I know personally here and whom I know by their participation on this and other forums...I am amazed at how short sighted 95% of you are.

    Stick to your opinions and go about buisness as usaual... Ill peek back in in a few months and see who has lasted and how many of you are still here. I will also look to see how many new players have survived you guys and the ways you do your buisness.

    GL in all you do.
     
  13. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Your disdain for any that disagree with you is getting pretty old.
     
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  14. aj502

    aj502 Active Member Pro Users

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    Well, I'm not just going to cave in and buy at shitty prices...I'll just wait for a deal I think is fair.

    What else can one suggest, minus the "cave in and buy" option?

    Hell, I didn't even think I was disagreeing with anything..If anything I thought it was more a strategy/suggestion.




    Tippin'
     
  15. Boardian Chilix

    Boardian Chilix Active Member Pro Users

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    how long have you been crafting to know abaut costs, to allow you to point fingers, as i guess tha arctic hint was aimed at me
    not going to argue much with you, very easy to be a miner were there are high margins and talk shit like you
    and quite hard as crafter having to do ks of clicks that can yield ks in loses, but well what do you know abaut qrs,L bps with few cliks,and what is needed to get those bps?
    you can ask araund and c if the ppl that deals with me is unsastified, so you though 122% as i sent you in Pm was high well i dont, i think it was lower than my cost as i cant do 100s of clicks of each of the 30 bps i have, so i made 3 one i had it for you one for my shop and set one at ah little higher as i most problably couldnt make more till days( i should had waited to be able to make a big batch but that way you wouldnt have the gun so soon ), also i guess you dont know nothing abaut the cost of building up components bps
    cost cost cost...whine
    and to end if you think we charge so much why dont you start crafting, gl at it
     
  16. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Disagreeing with me has NOTHING to do with disdain for certain people. AGAIN I will say this in hopes maybe you can grasp this.. When I speak of something involving "people" it is a generalized statement and is usually follwed by an example of what I am discussing. I would hazard a guess that anyone taking ANYTHING and EVERYTHING I say personally sufferd from a guilty concious. Trust me if I have issue with a specific person I address that specific person by name in in a manor that it could NOT be confussed with me talking to or about someone else.

    I am sorry if what I discuss hits you in the heart. Again.. choose to read what I say or dont.. but YOUR whining about what I say all the time is what is truely getting old.

    Please go back and read what I posted. What I was discussing has NOTHING to do with the choice of whether to buy or not to buy. That is and will ALWAYS be a personal choice for everyone. What I was discussing is the greed factor and how it will ultimately effect the future and the potential growth of Arkadia and EU in general. The break down of what I say is this...New players generally dont have alot of or are not willing to invest alot of money into something they know little about. (unless they are addicted gamblers beyond self control) Therefore the fact that high MU for small stacks is detrimental to the new players being able to even get a start and learn what crafting is all about simply for insane costs.

    This is not EU of old with most players being experienced and knowing how things work. This is EU in its death throws trying to attract more players willing to put money in to play be it for enjoyment or for longterm investment of sorts. Having MU so much above the trending values has a three fold effect. 1st... it keeps the ability for a new player to get started into playing and skilling by making the cost even that much more out of reach beyond the shitty return MA will give a no skilled player. 2nd.. with costs so high it has pretty much stalled any forward progress to stabilized market making many not want to come here because of that added cost. 3rd it simply looks bad when all people who DO come here see no rationalization other then greed for the market and will actively choose as you say to not buy into and support it.

    So again.. do as you people (generalized in this particular use of the word for those STILL confused) please and continue with buisness as usual.. YOU (nother genral use of a term for those unsure) will suffer the consiquences in the end when it is only YOU (get it yet?) left playing.
     
  17. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    So it's disdain for the playing community in general? So much better....

    I don't take it personally as you target just about everyone. Appears that anyone that doesnt have your worldview is blind, shortsighted or otherwise deficient. Oh CB is insulting the rest of the community again. How unusual.

    Wait, is that a general YOU or a specific YOU?
     
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  18. KMax

    KMax Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Please don't!!!!!
     
  19. KMax

    KMax Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Oh YOU will still be here I am sure :)
     
  20. aj502

    aj502 Active Member Pro Users

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    I was kind of hoping new players would read my suggestion(s) and take it into consideration more than Bill take it as a direct reply.
    Cannot say I disagree with Bill (because I know exactly what he's talking about), but instead of diverting to Bill's opinion, my aim was to direct to all, especially newer players, a means to counter said greed by quite simply playing smart.
    ;)

    Yea, it's slower, longer, etc...But I do hope that some newer players read and consider my post with the "strategy" before it get's lost in this seemingly personal hetradine over opinion.

    Hell, I only been in EU for 1.5 years, like I know anything anyway.
    ....Have yet to deposit tho - and still have enough fun to keep me logging in every now and then.
    ;)

    But by now any newer player is more inclined to see this thread as a rant thread rather than find any good suggestions in it.
    Ah well.
    Burp.







    Tippin'