TRADERS! A misconception!

I believe most people trying to pussyfoot around the argument really just don't like others making ped, at least more than slave wages, even if they deny it, perhaps they are just not being honest with themselves. It really doesn't matter, if you don't like the offer, don't buy/sell. If someone else does like the offer, it's none of your business.

 

K.

Craticus, thank you for your post. It is very well-thought out and took a lot of effort to write.

I spoke to you in-game you seem really nice and great to do business with. Wish I had bought your ores when we spoke.

But... traders do get a bad name on Arkadia when they literally do "rip people off". I've met at least 3 traders on arkadia who do this.

For example, some guy at quarry was buying Banite for 108 % (lol?) and the MU that day was like 130 %. Any miner could have put a small quantity of banite on auction and have it sell for more than 108 % post-auction fees. When I asked the trader wtf he was doing, he said the MU reflected "Caly prices".... Right... banite... caly prices... haha. *sigh*

Another example, is what other traders do: they buy for the usual accepted price of -4% of MU, BUT they resell for -1 % of "arkadia mu". So for example: buying blausarium for 107 %, but reselling it to crafters in trade for 113 %.

So, I feel bad that you're getting the bad rep that ony a handful of traders on arkadia and other planets are causing the profession... but yeah, these are the reasons why.

Another thing I never understood that almost all traders (except for the really nice ones, the more honest ones) do is buy unrefined ore/enmatter for NOT the refined MU. They buy it for like 10 % lower, and then when they resell they resell it still unrefined, but for -1% of refined MU.

It's not so much an issue now since unrefined stuff is used in recipes and even some BPs... like Henren stems and azzurdite stones... but yeaaaaaah.

Another reason why people hate traders (and it's also something I don't like about them, as a miner) is their ruthless undercutting.

Since traders buy "high mu" ores/enm for -15 % rather than the usual -4%, they'll just resell on auction for -10% of MU so that they can get a quick turnover and buy more. EVEN THOUGH their offer would have sold if they just matched/did 1 % less than lowest buyout, they just go "click click, -10% MU, I still make profit." And they won't even care that they're lowering the MU. This happened recently with Terrudite.... So there .

Anyway this is just my 2 pecs.

 

what i find interesting is how in my example you still keep talking down the price of arkoins, i personally have sold large amounts of arkoins on buyout and never for less than 180%, with the bulk at 185% or higher, i find it hard to believe you are ignorant of this fact since you speak with such authority on the subject.
but even if we take the lower value of 165%, then the "trader" is taking 46% of the markup for acting as a "ped reserve", i dont quite get where you get your 109% from, and how you can see taking 46% is reasonable in any way or form.
and i already said why these people sell to orders like this, and its mainly desperation mixed with some ignorance possibly, not something i would feel proud of profiting on.
and at least one of these people was going around the quarry claiming 130% was fair value while relisting them 165%, as wel as having a order for 130%, and here are you the arkadian advisor, saying there is nothing to see here, saying its perfectly fair for "traders" to take 46% of the markup, and standing up for this kind of activity.

i have nothing against someone making a effort as a trader, or the ore trader who buys in small quantities and builds stacks for auction or to trade with crafters, the people who trade in gear and equipment, it is obvious to all the service they provide, and the honest ones are well respected in entropia. so i disagree there with the thread title, there is very little misconception in regards to traders, its those other people "we" dont like...

 

I was just looking at the market values and the amounts on auction. I have not been buying or selling arkoins. For example, there is an auction for 31.37 ped arkoins listed at 168.95% buyout which has been listed for more than 4 days now (i.e. it has not sold). That tells me the going rate is certainly less than 185%. I'm not saying they can't be sold for 185%, but what I am saying is that sales at that amount above market value will only be a tiny portion of the total sales volume.

It's simple math:

Someone buys arkoins at 146% (taking yesterday's numbers: the current orders are at 147%). He resells them for 160% (the current "going rate" judging from today's auction listings). 160 divided by 146 is equal to 109.5, or a 9.5% profit, ignoring auction fees he has to pay when reselling the arkoins. In other words, our reseller pays 146 ped, he gets paid 160 ped, and makes a 9.5% profit on his investment. This is not unusual at all; many other resources have a 10% difference between order and offer. In fact, real life markets do as well, and many traders make a profit on the margin between the two.

Do you think I, as an adviser, should be condemning traders who are investing their peds this way?

I don't quite work out how you feel that I'm promoting the buyer at the quarry who said that 130% is a fair price for arkoins. I wasn't there, and I've not commented on that issue in game or here on the forum. My comments on the forum have only referred to real order and offer markups that I have seen on the auction house.

 

I actually did read thatwall of text and it comes across to me as a pretty good explnation of what trading is all about, that most newbies would benefit from reading. The guy exaggerates here and there (99.99999% of all players...lol. that leaves less than one active player) and over-simplifies the auction mu thing...but hey! if he didn't oversimplify, it would be an even bigger wall of text which nobody at all would read.

When i first came to EU i didn't know how to answer the q "are you a trader? " because it semed obvious to me , you can't participate in EU at all without trading (unless you discount bunging all your loot in the TT...though , strictly speaking, you are trading with MA when you do that). Six years later, i've a clearer idea what that term is supposed to mean and can answer "No" with a fair degree of confidence, but i still think it's an artificial distinction, and i see that what the term means exactly totally depends on who is speaking.

Some players' trading tactics are unspeakable; but the name that springs to mind first isn't what you'd call a trader, but rather a crafter. Sorting the wheat from the chaff just isn't so easy as bandying labels around.

Anyways, who hasn't been approached in quarry, time and again by some noob who wants to sell you tiny amounts at "market price"? Sometimes i just don;t have the time or patience to deal with them. Sometimes I do deal, and sometimes I actually do pay the mu (on "being nice to noobs"day). Whether I pay full whack or not, I always try to give a potted version of the info in the OP, to help save the noob endless frustration. They are always very thankful for this. So +rep to the OP i say


jay

 

I am probably one of the ones causing the OP to write this in reference to other posts regarding traders. I have read his entire post and most of it is smoke and mirrors feel sorry for traders talk with a few numbers thrown in for looks. What this all boils down to is him wanting to build a rep in game as fair. Sadly prior AND current players that do what he wants to do have and are killing the rep for traders. I look at it this way. He made excuses that he "will" buy all material but a second later states he specializes. If some one "specializes that's usually a good sign he is profiteering and not trading. I will assume since he prefers ores and en since they are transferable to other planets where the "Trading" game can be played ever further.. I have "Transportation costs" is always one of my favorites.. a whopping 10 ped warp flight, but yet some how that transposes into 10-20% or higher loss in ALL trades for the customer. Trading is a game like any other profession and we all get the "You must somehow maximize" your returns. We get that. But a trader will 1. buy EVERYTHING and stock the odd stuff on his own as part of the "Service". 2. Most real traders do NOT use the auction at all as they have built up enough stock to go directly to crafters so that excuse auction fees are killing me go right out the window. 3 any real trader will work to build relationships by treating people fairly to start and building up a loyal following. They wont need to be spending time justifying their actions on a forum. Anything beyond those three points and you simply fall into the profiteer category as you are a nub with no in game relationships strong enough to be functional yet. And yes again I will state there are real traders that do in fact stick to the 3% rule on most used materials and do do well because they have built direct relationships with traders and don't feed all their efforts back into the AH, and again I will state.. treat people fair, build a good rep, and you too will have people bringing you k's of ped daily and not 10's of ped.

 

I dunno.

how can so many people speak with such seeming authority, and such seemingly impeccable logic, from so many differentr POVs? Is it that nobody's listening to anybody else?

Whenever I read a thread on this topic, I find myself forced to following, depressing conclusions

1) if you make trading your specialist profession in EU, then a lot of people will be slinging mud at you. Period.
2) if you ever buy or sell anything (eg own loot) anywhere in EU, then somebody-or-other will be calling you nasty names, because you didn't do it according to their approved set of rules
3) there is no half-way rigourous definition of the term "trader" and nobody wants one, cos it would spoil the forum fun

would be really nice if something more constructive came out of these threads, but fat chance

jay

 

Well if it depresses you so much might I suggest since you know what is in them already to not read them... Or talk to your doctor that you may be prescribed a medication for your depression to take prior to reading them... ANY discussion on a topic good or bad has the means to move an issue forward to a viable resolution should ALL points be considered.

 

In theory yes. And this one started really well, IMO, but now its degenerated to the point where people (yeah, read Cyborg Bill) are not merely disagreeing with OP, but using the very fact that he posted his POV as the basis for a personal attack. I don't see that going anywhere constructive.

 

ok, so you havent really watched this market and were just commenting generally based on the limited information you have, fact is that 1-2 times a week someone has been buying out every arkoin on auction under a certain percentage, regardless of the current markup listed on the daily or weekly graph, this is where i base my 185% in this example on, the price at which my buyouts have been selling up to now (except 1x at 170%)

i dont think you as a advisor should condemn market manipulaters and people who prey on the weak and ignorant so much as i think you should not be rubbishing those that try to warn other participants of people that are, especially if it turns out you dont have the full information at hand to base your opinion on, and i dont need to remind you this isnt the first time you have tried to rubbish facts i bring to the table based on faulty information on your side.

 

I believe you're using "faulty" to mean "disagreeing with me". My points, which I believe are factual, have been made so I'll sign off on this topic.

I apologize if you feel I have treated you unfairly. Please PM me regarding the issues you referred to above, as I do not wish to "rubbish" genuine facts you bring to the table, and if that's happening, I'd like to correct it.

 

Hi folks!

Sorry ive not replyed yet, ive been snowed under with work and havent had the time to reply..

That being said its great to see a discussion on the subject taking shape, and some great points have already been raised, before we get into all that though i just wanted to put the record strait on that my OP was NOT a whine about me being picked on LOL or the like, the whole idea of the thread was to begin a discussion on the issue i belive the PB has with traders and the way there looked upon, yes its slighty irritating how people view you on a personal level but my MAIN concern is how its holding the economy back especialy here on ARK and hoping that we can change that view and utilize the trader as it should be and get the economy rocking here on ARK.....

Now thats out of the way as i say some really good points have been brought up here, the main one being "WHO IS A TRADER AND WHO IS NOT?" as someone said we ALL trade here in EU but what line do you draw and where?...

My personal view is, someone who simply buys low off auction or the street and resells high doesnt mean there a "TRADER" there just in for a quick profit, and i fully agree most times this behaviour is frowned upon but it carnt realy be stopped unfortuanatly...

the other very good point was the actions of some traders especialy here on ark where so called "traders" are buying low (because its ark) and selling high (because its ark).... a VERY good point and one that im hopping we can all work together to stamp out because its this behaviour that is crippling ARK and something im personly trying to help out with (when i can get online atm ) ARK auction is a joke and im hping if we get a few decent traders here we can start rooting out these bottom feeders who are asking crazzy prices making ARK a very expensive place to call home....

as a trader if your doing it right you should be able to provide goods at bellow MU if not there is no point in traders is there? so these people selling above MU are not traders there just in for a quick proffit making sale.... if we can get enough traders who are willing to stop looking at ark selling prices and start selling at reall prices the quicker ark will take off economicly....

and sorry about the wall of txt folks and well done for reading it lol, thx for all the PMs some great responses so chears guys, ill be back ingame ASAP, working all hours atm ....

finaly...... CYBORG BILL.....

LOL think a lot of your self dont ya pal.... sorry but no, the reason for the thread was the economy and the way traders are viewed and what people seem to expect to get % wise from there small stacks.... sorry ..

You really have got issues havent you..... yes i deal in ores and EnMats... and will buy ALL within that bracket... this doesnt put anyone out as i mainly deal with miners for obviouse reasons, dealing in hunting loot as well i would need to trebble my ped ballance and learn the prices on a ton of other stuff of whitch i havnt got around to yet. you expect me to be able to buy every item in game if some guy is selling it/ or any trader for that matter.... my point is when i advertise im buying ores and EnMats a will buy all with that cat, i DON'T just buy selected ores and enmats like some people do... but doing this automaticly stops me being a trader????? so a guy in RL buying/selling cars ISNT a trader because he wont buy truck loads of clothing???? your a moron and a troll, ive posted in 2 threads since being on this forum and for some reason you have already made your mind up you hate me? thats fine because after reading every post you make im not sure i like you either.... ill be ignoring your posts from now on your simply not worth online time......

=-=-=-=

thx again folks

regards

Craticus

 

Disclaimer: seems like one long rant but the Enter key is not starting a new line for me when I try to start a new paragraph.

Well I am back. Seems the cable company cant do simple math and shut off my internet since Saturday.
Soo lets get right into this.. To Jaywalker you KNOW if I have a problem with someone I speak to them by name so there is no confusing who I am talking about. I am not attacking anyone as this is a "general" discussion over trading principles and practices. That being said stop trying to gas people up and take yer ass back to the lap of your owner as this inter radio thing you guys keep perpetuating is over a year old now and is very tire some.
For Craticus I have no problem with you mate. You are the only one in here actually discussing trading and not just specific instances like the Arkoin deal that I have no knowledge of to speak on, so I guess it seems I am singling you out from that aspect. Don't get sucked into the certain few people who like gassing people up. Band wagoning was rampant on Calypso forum and it seems that the same people doing that crap over there are here trying to get rooted and do the very same thing. You are taking the position FOR trading and advocating the need for them which there most certainly is. I like to debate or discuss things from all aspects and will usually take the opposite position to see how a person thinks and handles themselves.

You seem to be new here on Arkadia but I have been here since day one and have brought up many of the same things you are saying in other discussions over the Arkadian economy. There are many, many, shitbirds out there doing the very things we are discussing here and putting out in the open. You will find here sadly like all other places where money is involved that people will take a position of convenience as long as it suits their need. Many people have argued with me being wrong about the very things you are saying because at the time it worked better for them financially. You don't have to justify what you do to me to defend your position as long as you stick to what you say and defend it intelligently.

As for thinking a lot of myself you are absolutely correct as it should be the same with you in regards to yourself or any other human about themselves. Bottom line is that should you defend your position well here and point out the how, what and whys you do your business people will think they know you and will come trade with you no matter how much I or anyone else post in this discussion. Look at the over all picture here and not the little tidbits manipulative people toss out in discussion threads to steer people with.

 

I LOVE TRADERS! and for those of you that can't get through the wall of text here is a simple way to know if you should trade with one.

Take your item put it in the add item to auction window (Dont actually put it in auction) hit up the min bid to close to the average MU you think it's worth. Then look at the auction fee and negative that off. You'll notice that most traders are actually giving you more then what you would have gotten in auction. Espeically when you can only increment in 1 PED values.

 

@ cyborg bill..

Ok thats cool, I just wanted a decent discussion on the trading issues here in EU, I dont expect everyone to agree all the time not least with me Just carnt be doing with forum battles does my head in ...

@ rex..

This is a big part of the trading issue imo... people just dont understand MU and the worth of there goods and how quantities effect that value....

This whole "my item is worth X amount" is stiffening the economy, there is no room to trade when every man and his dog wants daily MU, i0and if you offer anything less your a thieving SOB... you actualy carnt trade here with this mindset... people want you to buy at mu and sell under its crazzy..

People are getting upset at minus 3%. Well if I buy at minus 3% after a punch up at the tp over it then stockpile it ready for reasale to crafters who want it at max minus 3% trading starts to get damn hard work...

Like rex says try listing you 10 kaz on auction and calculate what % your getting there!!.. its the one thing having a real money economy bites us hard.. but for some reason these people are perfectly happy to say "pffft im not letting you have my stuff lower than mu you theif!!, but ill give it to the TT for bottom dollar and cray latter when the price of everything is so high because of false shortages in witch rogue traders can run amuck charging what they please and making arkadia a holiday hunting/mining plannet....

And that chaps my ass because ark is by far the best plannet and the dev team is 2nd to none... sutch a shame

 

I regularly buy my mats from miners at -2, -1 % daily mu and they're fine with it.

Now if I went into trading an did -2% for all the things I bought, I'm not sure, but if I put 100 tt of it on auction, I think i'd still make a profit @ daily mu.

 

That might work on a low MU item, try taking 2% profit on a resource valued at 140%, you'll lose several % by the time you are done w/fees.

Give the traders a break. Nobody pays for the MS costs of the flights, nobody is accounting for the time they take and profit they should make... Poor guys have a small base of players to work with here so a higher margin % is nessisary to stay in business on Arkadia.

If traders do not account for the smaller base with prices here, they would be better off on Calypso.. which is why the traders here ask for a little more compensation for the time spent... Simple enough... move on!

 

Cyborg Bill "the OP" looks like a clear identifying label to me, if it falls short of being an actual name. Maybe the "he/his" parts referrered to someone else other than the OP, but it was written in such a way that anybody would think it was referring to the the OP. you can argue your way out of that, if you like, but that doesn't change how it looks.

I have no idea what the hell this has to do with radio, who is perpepetuating what, (if indeed anybody's perpetuating anything) or who my owner is supposed to be . And really, i don't want to know...unless somebody other than yourself thinks they know what this is about? otherwise it looks to me like...let's make some vague, snide insinuations and then people will assume there's some kind of hidden agenda.

The fact is, I just don't like the style of your posts, simple as that.

And, now, I think i'll just ignore your next little stab, cos I'd rather this thread stayed on-topic

jay