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Crafting Sweats in Blueprint

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by cute781217, Jun 1, 2012.

  1. cute781217

    cute781217 Active Member Pro Users

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    I'm fine with putting sweat in blueprint to increase the demand of sweats to helping sweaters, but not in this furniture and at this amount each click. As Kitten stated that some new arkadia furniture use shitload amount of sweats each click.

    Take Pergola as example, afaik crafting success rate should be around 30~40%, so we take 1 success in 3 tries, it costs only 7.72 TT each click, but due to the huge amount of sweats the costs of each click is around 40 ped. afaik the markup don't affect the output, so the extra markup must charge from pergola buyer, so the minimal price of Pergola is TT+120. I mean are you serious? I know it is not the most expensive furniture, but this is the most unacceptable one for me, because i'm forcing to pay for sweaters, and maybe 95% or more of them will never ever buy any furniture in their whole EU life.

    What I want to say is maybe Arkadia team should re-consider putting sweat and the amount in future blueprints, I would say A-Team should put in some blueprint that sweaters may buy, like weapons, armors etc... not something that they will never buy, and the amount should be 100~500 more or less, not 1k or even 10k. If today the weapon bp needs 100~500 depends on weapon level, even with 33% success rate, the markup is increased around 0..9~4.5 ped each gun, the difference won't be so much compared with the furniture blueprint, and most of people will need them even sweaters, not only charge from estate owners, and the demand would be a long term demand not like furniture, because everyone needs weapon to hunt but not everyone has apartment to put furniture.
     
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  2. AlexSolo

    AlexSolo Member

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    Greetings,

    with a view on the market effect I can't see a problem at the moment really.

    I can follow that most sweaters are not a target group for furniture maybe as most appartments on Arkadia are sold already anyways most usual sweaters wont have any use for furniture. But crafting furniture does not involve to be dependend from a sweater to buy the furniture at all.

    Once the market for the new furniture is fed the demand for sweat to use in this blueprints will slow down as the furniture will be crafted less except for crafters who keep skilling with the prints (if that is even the case).

    When I see the usual sweater scene at quarry most reuse their peds to contribute in hunting again. Most dont even try other activities at all. I doubt someone will get rich by sweating in the longterm.

    If that is the worries then a sweatcap per person could be implemented to speculate for the players to get through with the peds they made in their time as sweaters or speculate on these players to start depositing.

    I would estimate that the most people wont start depositing after a cap is reached but more disappear from the scene at all.
    This estimation I do with pure feeling from what I observe at the ground at the moment.

    For further investigation we could make a poll aimed at mentors "How many of your disciples have ever started depositing?" "How many disciples have left the game without deposit?"

    If the number of leaving players is way higher than the number of people who keep playing you can estimate what happens if players get a cap.

    With a view on the retail price of the furniture I can't say that +120 is a price no one who likes the furniture won't invest. +500 to +1000 would be a price I would call furniture a complete status symbol which is not aimed at the mainstream.
    In that case the market for furniture would even be faster fed as the target group shrinks even more.

    Sweat as ingredient for guns could be done ofc. But that would get the weapons manufacturers on the table. How many sweaters are really using crafted weapons?

    Why should hunters finance sweating constantly? Furniture is a short term possibility for sweaters which will be over soon.

    Beside that the relation furniture crafters / sweaters is a buyers market.

    What worries do the furniture crafters see in the longterm? That I would like to get more explained because I personally can't see there anything at the moment.

    Thanks,

    Solo
     
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  3. cute781217

    cute781217 Active Member Pro Users

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    I'm not saying that furniture sale needs to be depend on sweaters to buy, what I mean is they will never buy it but we as estate owners need to pay for them.

    Arkadia team put sweat into blueprint is to increase sweat demand that is a good move, that means to me that Arkadia don't want to give up sweaters, so they create demand for sweats to help them. But as you said that the demand of furniture can be fed pretty soon, so the demand of sweats will be dropped again in near future. That's why I suggest just put sweats in (some) weapon or armor or amp blueprints to keep the demand in a certain level to let sweaters easier to sell their sweats. And some of the sweaters will grow up and start using low-end crafted weapons, yeah I know not much of them stay ingame until grow up, but yes some of them does. So sweaters will pay for themselves sometime, or some avatars built by sweating can pay for their fellow sweats as well.

    I don't know about the sweatcap and don't think that needs to be implemented.

    I left arkadia for calypso to participate argonaut event so I don't know how much pergola is atm, the TT+120 is I estimated from costs, the real price won't be TT+120 only. But you are right even at TT+200 is not a very expensive decoration. But what I'm saying is I'm as a estate owner just like you as a hunter don't want to be forced to finance sweaters, the price being so high is due to huge amount of sweats(10k) being used to craft it.

    I post this thread is not to argue if we should helping sweaters or whatever. Yes, I'm not happy some nice furniture used so much sweats so the price being so high, but the blueprints has been released and won't be changed anyway. I post this is hope arkadia team can re-consider the amount of sweats used in single blueprint and if they want to create a long term demand for sweats, they need to put sweats into blueprints that output has fairly big consumption, and the best choice would be weapon, maybe mining amp as well, maybe arkadia team can re-do the blueprint of Terra Amp 2 and above, it is bugged so far anyway, why not add sweats into it, maybe 500 too much, can try 50~100 to new weapon blueprints and Terra Amp, it add a few costs in craft but that is a big help to sweaters.

    I'm not sure if I answered your questions :p English is not my first language anyway, so I need to think alot to reply you
     
  4. AlexSolo

    AlexSolo Member

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    I understand, your english is very good indeed. :)

    Sweat in weapons demand that there are enough people to supply the amounts needed.
    To estimate we would need sales numbers of weapons manufacturers plus active newcommer sweaters or experienced sweaters.
    Are the mentors able to set up a real running sweat supply with their disciples? If yes it could be done.

    If we run dry of sweat and get weapons supply on hold that would be a desaster for the planet. Weapons export seem still our miners daily bread at the moment.

    Securing that needs a low amount per click on the crafting attempts. Dont know if that is in the sight of Arkadia Studios to steady demand sweat that be to estimate by them.

    Mining amps could also be a entry. I would be glad if more new players go into swining than swunting. But from what I hear and see new players interested in mining keep sweating and buy rookie finders from other planets instead using the TT finders (10 ped in 10 ped wasted mentality). We have no market at the moment for starter crafters to get into low level amps. I had a look at that but dont see a proper possibility to get even level1 amps sold if I would start it. I don't know yet if there are enough mining mentors on the planet or at all.

    So I hope we don't get Arkadian Rookie finders. Sweating until cash and start mining with TT finders until max and move to crafted tools to encourage and integrate players into the running economy at a whole. I would not keep new players seperated from economy on the one and selling goods into it on the other side.

    Maybe sweat in crafted tools need to involve disbanding of TT items completely. That would get sweaters to take part in economy and open a beginner market for beginner crafters as well (as for weapons and also mining / heal tools)

    This can be a chance then but its more like "what gets sweated in peds gets spend at the tt or repairs the most." At least its a free method to make peds.

    How much low cost should there be?
    Is it right to fuss over everyone too much?

    Solo
     
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  5. Snape

    Snape Master of the BanHammer Staff Member PAF Administrator

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    A very interesting discussion guys. +rep to you both. I will be watching this one closely.

    :popcorn:
     
  6. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    The only issue I would take with the whole "sweat added to MU" argument is that you can sweat yourself and basically then zero sweat MU on it. While I tend to agree some of the numbers quoted seem a bit high however they may re-balance those numbers later as more sweat BPs are added.

    It would be nice if ark adds some MF chips that it changes the ratio on them so they have low/much lower decay but higher ME use.
     
  7. Danton

    Danton Active Member Pro Users

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    I think it is a good idea to bring in more uses for sweat. It is a shame buying it for 1,5 PED/k from sweaters. Sweating is the job most of us have begun with. Imagine we all have had to start with 1,5 PED/k in the past. How many more have left game then before having a deeper look in it? Its true that there are ppl that will never Depo and stay on a low level, but its also true that some todays sweaters will become Depositors one day when they get there chance to "stay alive" with sweating for a while and can sell ther sweat to a fair price.
    10k sweat/click for furniture is a bit wired, agreed, but the idea to make sweat needed for more BPs is something I would like to see. From my point of view, it will make more noobs stay ingame and hopefully one day some of them become Depositors. And we all know when there is something we really need, it is more players.
     
  8. Futurama

    Futurama Member

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    No, actually it does not work that way. You still invest a lot of time, you still could have sold the sweat to another player. So your statement is wrong. If you gather the sweat yourself, craft that furniture (materials costs tt+120) and sell it for tt+50 - you still lose 70 peds you could have earned.
     
  9. Lee DeLioncourt

    Lee DeLioncourt Arkadian Outrider Platinum Member

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    Most of my thoughts are covered by Danton's post above. Cute, one thing to consider here also is that we don't know for sure yet if it is only those high level furniture bps that now use sweat as an ingredient, since I find it highly unlikely that all of the 100 or more new bps in this VU have even been discovered yet. So we don't know yet what else it might be used in if anything, but other planets have added bps that use sweat and that was a big help to their newcomers, and for now on Arkadia I personally appreciate this small boost of help to the newcomers who want a bit more time playing before deciding to deposit. Whoever mentioned a sweat cap btw, there was such a cap before, MA core system, but they removed that cap a long time back now, which in itself caused a fuss either way. So I don't see there ever being a short supply of sweat, and if there is for any reason, any of us at any level can collect our own, when the cap was in place we couldn't after the cap was reached, I certainly wouldn't want that cap back and think MA made the right move removing it.

    Anyway, looking forward to seeing how this develops, if any other bps use sweat now (less than a full week since the VU) and how it all settles over time :)
     
  10. Raito

    Raito Member

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    The "problem" i see is that when making blueprints A-Team and other devs probably have a set value (in their head) for what the sweat is worth, if not they should have because you can't just make a blueprint with 20k sweat per click because it's TT value is worth 20pec while with markup that's easily 60ped. To counteract that materials needed for blueprints would need to shift from sweat to other materials, which would probably lower the overall cost to craft.

    When Kitten said she needs 1k sweat per click i was glad, i mean it's not too much and the item itself (curtains) won't be in such a high demand so the price of sweat won't skyrocket. The 10k sweat per click is in my opinion kind of high for an item that only few people can use, but since no item has been sold through auction yet there is no telling whether it's markup will compensate the cost to craft (success and possible failures). And like cute said buyers of such items in the end support the sweaters.

    As far as the discovery of blueprints go, we can only hope they will be discovered sooner rather than later. Afterall after 1 year the Perseus armor (L) still hasn't been fully discovered? Don't think the craftable armour blueprints have been discovered yet so that could be another potential use for sweat but only time will tell.

    I support the idea of blueprints needing 100-1k sweat per click, anything more will just attract hord of flies from other planet(s) with their sweat if the craftable items are in high demand.
     
  11. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    Now don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to adding sweat to certain items. I do think new players ought to be able to sell their sweat fairly easily. And it's obvious that we do need more demand for sweat. But I don't EVER want to see sweat added to "functional" Arkadian items for the sake of merely increasing their cost. By "functional", I mean those items which obtain TT loot from MA. For instance, furniture and clothes are a good choice because they are "luxury" items that serve only a cosmetic/fun purpose. You can't use a couch to hunt. Guns and amps are a bad choice for sweat ingredients because they are functional items; they should be made as efficient as possible (e.g. lowest price possible). Adding sweat only reduces their efficiency. See below for my good own good ideas for sweat use :)

    I think a much better idea is to make the sweat addition optional, but its use enhances the item in some way. The possibilities are endless. I'll give a couple examples so you can get an idea what I'm talking about. You could have an L gun whose max TT value is increased when you add a certain amount of sweat to the BP ingredients. This increases the life of the gun. It might make the gun slightly more expensive, but would be worth it to certain hunters. You could have sweat increase any one of the gun's stats: range, max dmg, even lower the SIB level slightly (in a balanced way, of course). Do this for any item. Would it be worth it to add sweat to increase a vehicle's top speed by 5%? You bet. These enhancements don't have to be a big; even a small enhancement in certain stats of certain items would create a vibrant sweat market, and players would not feel they're being unfairly taxed by sweaters.

    Most of the ideas I see out there for creating sweat markets are win-lose (i.e. the sweater wins and the player loses), but I feel that new sweat uses should be win-win (sweater wins, player wins). In other words, sweat should be used for things that enhance game play, never for things that simply add to the cost of playing.

    MA would have to get on board with this idea and add the capability to the crafting system, since you would need to be able to produce 2 different items from the same BP depending on whether the optional ingredient was added. I'm not sure if anything like this currently exists.
     
  12. Menace

    Menace Member

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    I think sweat should be used in blueprints that actually produce items with a demand. I mean.... I have no use for curtains.... I can't find an apartment to buy here on Ark!

    Menace
     
  13. Angel O2 Mercer

    Angel O2 Mercer Member

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    The game will benefit from a higher sweat demand.
     
  14. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    ummm... when you sweat your own sweat to make something you are selling that sweat to another player. So if you sweat 7k of sweat and sell something made from it vs buy 7k of sweat part of your profit is from the sweat. You seem to be missing that simple fact.


    Well thats the same issue with everything. It really has nothing to due with sweat. I could say if you go out and mine yourself and your returns cost you mats tt+120 and you only sell for tt+50 then you lose 70 peds. That argument has zero to due with sweat.
     
  15. cute781217

    cute781217 Active Member Pro Users

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    Yes, you are right, I didn't consider if the current sweat supply enough for crafters to crafting weapons and amps daily, but I don't really think it would be a problem in the long run, because once the sweats price raising then many sweaters will be migrate from calypso to arkadia and some traders may start importing sweats to arkadia, so I don't think the supply of sweats would be problem.





    It doesn't matter if other blueprints (released in this VU) requires sweats to craft, from the blueprints released in 29th we can know that arkadia team don't want to give up sweaters and want to help them, so I think it is pretty sure that there will be more blueprints required sweats to craft in the future. So I post this thread to ask them to re-consider the amount of sweats requited in single blueprint, 1k is already too much not to say 10k, if they want to create constantly and steady demand for sweats then weapons and amps would be the best choice due to both of them has huge consumption everyday. But I'm not saying should contain sweats in all the future blueprints, could be part of it only.
     
  16. Futurama

    Futurama Member

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    The point I was trying to make is that no matter how you aquire sweat (buy it or gather it yourself "for free"), you still lose peds if you cannot sell the end product atleast at craft costs (market value of materials used).
     
  17. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    I completely agree... which is why I don't understand your argument at all. Requiring large amounts of sweat will give crafters hope leyway in what is "carfting costs"/"Market value of materials used". I would think if your arguing that point you would be demanding MORE sweat be require in MORE BPs and in LARGER amounts... for the simple reason that sweat is far easy to "price control" for the craft... since they can get it for free up to paying X amount for it.

    The control you get from that option is MASSIVE.
     
  18. cute781217

    cute781217 Active Member Pro Users

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    If only add sweats in furniture and cloth blueprints then it makes me feel like a punishment to people who owns a estate or wants to wearing nice, and the demand of sweat may increased temporarily but won't last too long. Arkadia team put sweats into blueprints means they care about sweaters, so I think they should put sweats in the blueprints that most of people will use so everyone may help to sweaters indriectly, not just in something like furniture or cloth bp, becuase the demand of them are quite limited compared with weapons and amps. Arkadia team can consider to add a series of weapons like Geotrek series in Calypso, correct if I'm wrong Geotrek tends to have better eco than normal calypso weapon ( Breer series, isis series etc...), but due to the materials required to craft has higher markup, so the Geotrek has higher average markup as well. Then players can choose they want a Herman series weapon with abit lower eco and markup or a new series of arkadia weapons that with higher eco and markup. So people won't be forced to pay for sweaters. Yes no matter what it may sounds not good for us depositor, but I believe it would be good for the whole planet in the long run.

    But I agree with your suggestions too, if mindark can do that would be a good thing.
     
  19. AlexSolo

    AlexSolo Member

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    Hello,

    I am not convinced that a serious tool crafter has the time to gather sweat by himself to lower his own crafting costs. A serious crafter needs tons of sweat right on time when he needs to go for new stock. If sweat would be used in Tool Blueprints the number of crafters will always be lower than the number of sweaters. It will be a buyers market with advantage on the crafters side. Crafters will get the main buyer group of sweat on Arkadia in no time because we have a very dense infrastructure of teleporters on the planet which almost make it unreasonable to use teleport chips alot. Have a look at high end players online streaming videos. You see even them using vehicles. Just a small usage of TP chips to get fast to a creature back in case they die what they dont do alot with a fapper behind them and are due to that reason with 2 high end faps in the field. It is almost not valueable of talking about.

    Mindforcers seem to be a minority and can buy sinth ME from the TT and use it to skill with. The higher level chip users are minority also. Most I have seen are hunter tourists from Calypso who heal a little with a mindforce chip but that is a minority inside a minority :)

    It's not that the sweaters will be able to control the market price as a sweater who sweated maybe 50-100K bottles together will be glad to get it finally sold to shoot his next caraboks after that long time he needed to sweat. And when low end depositers will see that crafters need sweat the Nusul Camp will get open 24/7. That will get the calypsonian sweaters into space and arrive cause all will tell their friends that "on Arkadia sweat sells alot faster". Sweat price will soon be down to 10-50 pec /1k. What will most do when a crafter tells them "not for that price"? they will sell lower as they want to go on finally and if they want they will have to sell lower as there wont be another possibility to get rid of it.

    It will be the crafters who dominate the sweat market price. "you dont sell for 10 pec/1k? ok then i buy from the next sweater." A crafter always likes to set the lowest possible endprice to his customers to sell more items. Beside that I dont think that the developers will ever allow it to give sweaters overhand over professions which need investment. That would be against the principle of the RCE concept.

    Until the sweat price is still high a tool crafter could easy stop his production for a week to set sweaters under preasure. It will be the miners who have a disadvantage then as they wont get rid of their ressources anymore as the crafters set the chain out of order. Amounts of ore and enmatter will be sitting on auction then and MU on them will lower as miners will try to get rid of it to continue mining.

    To prevent that would involve to set the amount of sweat high enough per crafters click to keep the sweat price. But who will buy these weapons then? The pergola furniture cost 300 ped cause of the amounts of sweat per click.

    I dont think sweat in permanently used tools will help the game. it will rather encourage low end depositers to not depo anymore and somehow i have the feeling that is what suits a large group of mid level experienced players more than new players. the companies behind the game can offer sweating as possibility but it wont open them opportunities to invest.

    Therefore I dont like to see sweat in blueprints of consumables. Its a niche profession. What has been done with the furniture now can be seen as a gift from Arkadia to give a short-mid term possibility for new players to get rid of sweat faster to gain peds to get into other activity. But im not really sure if the most sweat sellers have been really new players.

    Only possibility I see is to get sweat needed for low end tools and get rid of TT tools so new players will learn more that EU is about to work for your things and interact with item sellers as you need to buy tools from other players which produce it and not from the 24/7 blue terminal which has unlimited supply for TT.

    So if you want to make it for new players the new players could supply for their own new players market and finance it with their work.

    Experienced players who sweat from time to time for their own ME or ME sales do it like they do now. They wont change it.

    Solo
     
  20. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    Yeah but in those cases the big time crafters will buy at almost any price... and lower end crafters will save a few ped sweating the stuff themselves.

    I agree with this somewhat which is why I don't understand why the crafters would be angry at the change.
     

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