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Read sleep on it then respond.

Discussion in 'PvP' started by PostHistory, Oct 31, 2017.

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  1. PostHistory

    PostHistory Member

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    Okay, I don't have a lot of pictures :) but happy to come back with them....

    To Enter Space(PVP) you are afforded one more level of security then that of PVP on planet is not...

    You are Warned with a pop up Message.
    [​IMG]
    You then now have a choice to enter space with or without lootables or not to enter space.

    Some people like to gamble or look at it as "boot legging" to squeeze those extra PEC's out of the game....
    Some people think... it wont happen to me...
    and some are just drunk and the okay button should have a math question with it :)


    Now some people will argue this.

    "How am I to get my items from one planet to another"

    I have a few answers to this question.

    • Sell your items before you leave the planet your on, support the local communities that you visit and then buy their goods.
    • Sell your items before you leave the planet your on, and use the Auction system to buy what you want.
    • Purchase a Warp from a Reputable warp service, and pay the 7PED TP fee once you have gotten to your destination.

    Now for the ethic's thing... that I am accused of on almost a daily basis.

    I have been playing this game now well over 10 years.... I have also been killing other players for their loot for all this time, well before space was here and never has it been such a big deal as now....

    I would like someone to give me a rational non-emotional reason as to why killing in space is some how different to killing people on planet in the Red Zones is any different, and why it is seen as theft when I see it as you loosing on a gamble that I wouldn't be there.


    ====================== Post OP ==========================​
    Wow this thread has given me good insight into why people like and dislike space, I think I am a better person for opening up this thread to get some fresh feedback on what people think now as apposed to a few years back, some people have evolved in their views some are still true to their views of the past.

    Here I will list some really good ideas that MA might like to have for their next brain storm that feature in this Thread.


    In a Private message in game I had the suggestion of....



    Personally I would love to see Log-out gone for Privateers and Motherships, I have seen support cases dating back some years now where they acknowledge that this was an unintended condition... But I do think this would need to accompany some of the above ideas at the same time...



    And here is some stuff I just like for helping people rationalise what is a part of this game.

     
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    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
  2. Granny Rowan

    Granny Rowan Active Member

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    Even assuming most people entering space read the message and don't just click accept, It is all about perception.

    Planetside pvp you can always walk or fly around it, you don't have to cross it unless you want to take the risk
    Space PVP - In order to get to other planets (the other 80% of the game) you have no choice but cross PVP space, whether you use a quad or a warp ship.
    People therefore feel trapped into extra expense or additional risk.
    This tends to make them speak aggressively when shot as opposed to the more usual 'nice shooting' or silence if killed in planet pvp.

    Many pirates (not all) consider it gameplay to add to their role as a 'baddie' by bad mouthing other space users (yes I know it happens on planet pvp sometimes, but that kind of ego seems less obvious).
    These 2 things then feed into each other and ..wham..we have in game hatreds as opposed to simple game roles.

    Over time the polarisation has intensified, where a pirate is no longer just an opponent in space, but someone to be hated, feared, loathed. Stupid but true
    Pirates are also not immune to either the daily verbal abuse they take from others. nor in some cases their own perceptions of superiority (after all they put in long hours as pvp'ers) but they react badly to any person or vessel that challenges that. Again this can then lead to silly situations where personal abuse, references to real life, even threats have been made, doubtless by both sides.

    It's a game folks... we are here to have fun... being a pirate or hunting a pirate or avoiding a pirate (smuggling) are all part of it.
    For those that need to move lootables there is as pointed out by PostHistory always the option of hiring a warp or not carrying lootables but using the AH or local shops.

    Again we meet that strange thing called perception.
    'It costs how much !!' they scream 'nah I'll pass, that's extortion.'
    Really ?
    25 or 30 ped is I believe the most expensive warp cost for a VIP warp, can be much cheaper especially if prepared to use a scheduled warp. Is this really expensive ? what is it in dollars as opposed to ped..give it some perspective. How many times a day do you lose many times that to MA, yet fret over paying it for not only the safety of your loots, but also the huge reduction in time to get to destination.
    Also consider the expense laid out by the owner to get that vessel (and no they are not all super rich in RL), the on-going expenses of operating the ship, and oh yeh the pilot's time. Most times that people use services in game (FAP healers, craft to order for instance) they happily pay a consideration for time as well as decay or materials. Yet I and others have regularly been questioned over the fact a warp price includes that same consideration for the owner/pilots time. How silly is that ?

    So banter is fun, but let's keep a sense of proportion, hate has no place in a game, if you feel you have been cheated, or that someone is exploiting use the reporting sytem to MA Support, rather than whip up a posse in chat or in forum.
     
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  3. Yoshii

    Yoshii Member

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    I do not make moral distinction between looting in space and looting on planet.

    Some reasons players may make difference between pvp4 and space pvp include the following:
    1. You have to earn skill (or buy them) to loot players in pvp4. Some experienced skilled players resent that their years of dedication and building skills means little or nothing in pvp space.
    2. Far greater number of people are impacted by space pvp.
    3. One has to travel through pvp space to get to another planet. Even if you do not travel through pvp space yourself the price of protecting goods gets passed onto consumers. Compared to pvp4 in general space pvp costs more to the end consumer.
    4. Griefing. I do not know anything about phenomena of griefing in pvp4 but I do hear about griefing in space pvp. Have also experienced it myself. Some space looters get annoyed with someone for any number of reasons and camp on them at some space station killing them over and over again. If you want to portray yourselves as honest pvp looters who are just making a living a good start is to stop this griefing. People do not believe you are just doing your job when you kill someone over and over who clearly has nothing left to give you.
    5. Players want choice. They want choice to engage in space pvp or to have option to teleport. There are players who enjoy the risk of pvp and possibly being looted. There are also many players who remember the convenience of teleporting from one world to another. Some players see travelling through space as time consuming barrier from one place to another. Even with warping players complain it is still too much time wasted they want convenience not the bother of arranging with someone else the when and how of going from one point to another. Space as it is many agree needs a lot of work to make it more then just something you have to slog through to get to where you want to go.




    Special note to space travellers:
    Push the compact button of your inventory. This brings stuff up that may be hidden way at bottom below where you can see.
    Always before going up into space check carefully do you have anything that can be taken in pvp? You may be so sure in your mind you have no loot check anyway and often you will find stuff that you were sure you had already put away in planetary storage. A lot of loot taken is from people who are sure they had no loot. The system will not tell you if anything was taken or not. Only the looter gets the window showing what loot was taken. You can be looted over and over again and not know it
    Put fuel (oil) in the gastank of your vehicle. If fuel is in your personal inventory or vehicle storage it is loot that can be taken in pvp.
    Loot is anything that can be found in materials or mined resources tabs in your personal inventory. If materials or mined resources items are stored in vehicle storage it will be taken in pvp if you are carrying that vehicle.
     
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  4. PostHistory

    PostHistory Member

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    "1. You have to earn skill (or buy them) to loot players in pvp4. Some experienced skilled players resent that their years of dedication and building skills means little or nothing in pvp space."

    I am one of these players.....


    "2. Far greater number of people are impacted by space pvp."

    I think you miss the point of space... Planet Partners want to keep you on their planet.


    "3. One has to travel through pvp space to get to another planet. Even if you do not travel through pvp space yourself the price of protecting goods gets passed onto consumers. Compared to pvp4 in general space pvp costs more to the end consumer."

    You pay a premium for loots that come out of PVP4 due to the risk's involved in getting them.... till recent Pyrite was a good example... there are others but that's not this discussion.


    "4. Griefing. I do not know anything about phenomena of griefing in pvp4 but I do hear about griefing in space pvp. Have also experienced it myself. Some space looters get annoyed with someone for any number of reasons and camp on them at some space station killing them over and over again. If you want to portray yourselves as honest pvp looters who are just making a living a good start is to stop this griefing. People do not believe you are just doing your job when you kill someone over and over who clearly has nothing left to give you."

    This is a practice I myself do not condone.

    "5. Players want choice. They want choice to engage in space pvp or to have option to teleport. There are players who enjoy the risk of pvp and possibly being looted. There are also many players who remember the convenience of teleporting from one world to another. Some players see travelling through space as time consuming barrier from one place to another. Even with warping players complain it is still too much time wasted they want convenience not the bother of arranging with someone else the when and how of going from one point to another. Space as it is many agree needs a lot of work to make it more then just something you have to slog through to get to where you want to go."

    The days of TP between planets..... I remember those days,,,, where one person had to pay a fee far greater than the fee for a VIP warp. So if you and a group of friends wanted to go to another planet you could spend 100's of PEDs just to get there...... Great idea there Yoshii...... I wonder how that would impact on the cost of goods......
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  5. Yoshii

    Yoshii Member

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    As things stand now the teleporting Mind Ark currently offers between worlds is 7 ped.
    What many players want is this to be expanded such that one from any planet or world one can teleport to any other planet or world. The time saved and convenience of teleporting cannot be matched by space services currently on offer.
    Some players want there to be no fees at all to teleport they see space as a barrier from one hunting and mining area to another. I do not think it is realistic to expect Mind Ark will offer free teleporting. But perhaps they would be willing to expand what is already in place. There is strong demand for this.

    Planet partners can want any number of things. What they must keep in mind is what the PLAYERS want.

    Any gamer worth that title knows that 3rd party hacking is endemic in the gaming world. For example aim hacking where you cannot miss. I have been shot down space by pvp players who used an aim hack. I have also been shot down by pvp space players who use speed hacking. I do not mean to suggest that only pvp players hack and exploit but it makes a red flag in front of bull when a player has their stuff taken by a hacker. Surely you can see the problem even if most pvp players do not cheat and exploit the few who do makes the notion of consent to being looted a mute point. Players do not consent to being exploited contrary to the rules of the game. Of course I recognize all cheaters are impacting the game and players negatively. I am aware of the various ways auctions and trades are manipulated and alt bots used for gathering and sweating etc. One has option to back out of a potentially bad deal. A player can choose not to engage in those things where hacking is making it a bad deal for them to participate. One is not given option to back out of a potentially bad pvp fight.

    Last point. Societies do not need to make rules such as "you not allowed to do nice things such as healing for your socmates". Nobody would think to object to nice things being done for them. But in looter society for example NVE the rule "you not allowed to loot socmates" is imposed otherwise it is chaos and bad feelings. Why? Because pvp players do not like to be looted. I have heard many pvp players say they do not loot their friends. Why? Because they would not have any friends if they looted them. Why? Because people do not like to be looted. The fact that Mind Ark makes pvp a legal part of game does not change fact that pvp people who loot others do not like to be looted. Nobody likes to be looted. Best pvp players can reasonably expect from most players is their pvp activity to be grudgingly tolerated because Mind Ark has decreed it is legal to loot in pvp.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  6. mastermesh

    mastermesh Member

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    Red zones are worse than space since u can mine there... we need minable asteroids
     
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  7. San

    San Active Member

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    This must be the umpteenth thread of a pirate trying to rationalize his/her existence. I think you guys are just tools, and oh so proud of it. A role was offered in a role-playing game, that of a thug in a racket. You took it, everybody else has an opinion about it. The hatred comes from the assumption that an individual has a propensity to take up roles which are natural to their personality. This way it spills over and beyond the realm of the game itself. It may be irrational, but thus are humans and it's not likely to stop no matter what anyone tries to explain. Remember the iceberg model -- applied to consciousness, only the tiny tip above the water is our rational mind. The huge mass under the surface is the emotional part.
     
  8. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    When you take my stuff from me against my will it is, in my view, theft. I don't like thieves. In EU we are talking about stuff with real dollars value so it's a not just a game.

    The clear difference between between PVP4 and space is that if I want to get from planet a to planet b I have no choice but to travel through space. My business requires that I travel from planet a to planet b on a regular basis. I do so knowing the risks and I take measures to manage that risk. For me that involves using auction to transport stackables between planets. So I don't intentionally take lootable assets into space but I have screwed up on a couple of occasions and that has cost me considerable dollars. I take responsibility for my errors but that doesn't make it ok for someone to steal from me. So on that basis I send a big fuck you to the thieves who benefited from my errors and also to the other thieves who aim to parasite off the player community.

    I don't waste my energy or time abusing pirates or engaging in witty banter with them. There are always going to be arseholes and there is no benefit in letting them affect your life more than absolutely necessary.

    Regards,
    KikkiJikki
     
  9. PostHistory

    PostHistory Member

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    This is not between worlds period. Each Planet Partner is a "World".
    It is between space stations and the related planet, or in Calypso's case it's Asteroid's, and Moon

    The whole vision from day dot was SPACE to be a free market, and I can tell you it has been a major improvement to PRE VU10, where you would have to pay 50PEDs for a VIP if anyone was around or 100PEDs if they were on the other side...

    I want MA to make my hunting returns to be 110%, its what the whole community wants..... but hey we will only have a game for 9 months at most, My point is MA and the PP's have to make decisions that are best for both them and us. To use and engineering term, Space is the baffle in a tank to slow the migration of fluid from one side to the other, other wise the tank would break. (Tank = Game, Baffle = Space, Fluid = People)


    A lot of what you talk of here was not dreamed up in space but on planet side, I have been at the receiving end numerous times by both sides PK'er and Miner alike Consent is not a mute point on this argument, if you feel you have been duded write a support case, don't like the outcome try again. If you still don't like the response you may have to look at dealing with the issue another way. I know many a player to leave because they are not happy with Support.
    Report any suspicious behaviour, don't use it as an excuse to remove a feature... we could mount the same argument for sweat gathering hunting puny mobs and even heaven forbid crafting Explosives.....


    Would hate to go into battle with you by my side.... based on this premise, If I were at your side start and I start to shoot at the other side, you then see shooting so will shoot what me? or our fellow comrades? are you nuts?

    The whole idea of being in a Society is we work toward a common goal, same as you with the society of Team Varyag.

    Our Society as well as any other PVP society offcourse do not allow killing of fellow Society members.

    You clearly do not understand the idea of PVP.
     
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  10. hHitman

    hHitman Member

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    I do not know why is it hard to use a warp flight to avoid this hatred.If you take the risk going out with lootables its your dumb idea i would say.If pirates are not around, warp ships wont be even be in business.I have been shot as well and dont want to do the same error again.Its a game with real cash so why take unwanted risk thinking you will be alone in space? If you tell yourself ''They are out there somewhere'' i think you wont go in space with loot.
     
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  11. BruuD

    BruuD New Member

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    I hate space...
    Imo, it would be better for the economy if we could just TP from one planet to another and share one auction.
    Sorry for all the nice folks that are warping us back and forth now (I do like you!), but space is just a pain in the butt!
     
  12. PostHistory

    PostHistory Member

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    To hate space is to hate the game, Space has always been apart of the game.
    Space by design is suppose to create local economies with what your suggesting would basically be a return to a "mono-verse" Pre VU10.
    I like the idea of multiple planets with different economies, Makes the risk of me taking loot from one place to another lucrative.

    As I have said in the past there are multiple ways to cross space some with high risk and high reward some with low risk and less reward... sounds like the real world to me.
     
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  13. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Space has not always been part of the game.

    You are quite correct that it's a lot like real life. There are thieves in real life also and a sensible person takes precautions to protect themselves against these parasites. But the real life thieves are still arseholes.
     
  14. BruuD

    BruuD New Member

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    I think the problem is that we don't have the player base to support local economies.
    Take a look at avatars actually getting globals on planets: http://www.entropialife.com/Planets.aspx
    Only like 2.500 unique avatars in the past week or so.
    So we got, what, maybe 5.000 active players in the entire universe?

    With that little people playing, I think the current space system is actually hurting the game right now.

    EDIT: To add to that, I wouldn't even be leaving Arkadia if it wasn't for the need to sell my loot on Calypso and not being able to put stuff on the auction there! So if space is a way to keep players on a certain planet, it's not working out well for the PP's...
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
  15. San

    San Active Member

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    This of course is the only reasonable and rational approach to what is a given for the time being. Yet it doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on the whole setup and its conception. We're not talking about nature or God's creation (depending on one's belief system), but simply a man-made thing. It is perfectly okay for the small minority that thrives in it to praise, as well as for the majority that abhors having to put up with it to direct their choice words at both the users and creators.
     
  16. PostHistory

    PostHistory Member

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    Space in some form has been here since 24 November 2003
    So yeh its been here near on for ever :D

    Hunters 4 088, Crafters 1 082, Miners 1 193
    the above based on a floored system of only recording global's but still way higher than your estimates from the same source? did I miss something?
     
  17. BruuD

    BruuD New Member

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    My point is still the same, how are 6.363 (ok, let's say 10.000) active players going to support local economies in a universe with 7 planets?
    The player base is way to small for that to happen.

    Anyway, that's just my gut feeling talking here. I'm not an economy expert ;)
     
  18. PostHistory

    PostHistory Member

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    I'm by far no expert either :)

    But hey lets work on the 10k figure as its my impression too...

    10k is not divided by 7, NI Tooland would have bugger all of the numbers followed by Cyreen, then RT and Monria then Arkadia then Calypso

    so 10K would be divided by 2.9 planets? still a low number but still enough to play the game. I agree MA needs to do more to promote and retain players.

    Sorry a little OT but it does link in.
     
  19. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    It wasn't in the game at the launch of Arkadia. So no it wasn't always part of the game. And in the earlier incarnation of interplanetary travel there was no lootable pvp involved in that travel.

    Anyway, pirates are gonna pirate. There's no point stressing on it. But don't pretend it's anything other than theft.

    Regards,
    KikkiJikki
     
  20. PostHistory

    PostHistory Member

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    Arkadia came after space....

    Here's a nice page to help....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropia_Universe

    EDIT: I will admit lootable space has not been here as long as space has....
     
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