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Limited Versus Unlimited - Items

Discussion in 'Wishlist' started by starfinder, Nov 15, 2010.

  1. Kevlie

    Kevlie Member

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    Unlimited weapons are good because u dont have to pay % everytime it breaks, but L weapons have more SIB so that makes them more useful and most of them are much more economical to use.
     
  2. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    L items "WERE" semi designed for crafters to recoup a little on their profession I agree.
    Right up until the first wave of nerfs came to the L gear. Then MA got their cut "Enhanced".

    If MA truely wanted to help the crafters they would have (again) ditched the repair terminal and added the in game skill of repair to the crafters repitoir. Crafters would have made steady returns to equalize the gamble of crafting and MA would still get a cut in decays for materials used to do repairs.

    Unfortunately this is not how MA works. They release stuff under the guise of being good for the player base but have no plans to let it stay that way. Everything that gets done gets perverted to nothing more then a ped drain.
     
  3. Addz

    Addz Member

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    The good thing about (L) Weapons is that you can max them without having to get to skill level 100. You can cry about the markup all you like, but when you actually sit down and crunch the numbers you are often better off using a maxed (L) weapon at 140% mu than an UL weapon.

    Something like a mod merc in the hands of a noob is less efficient than an opallo. So maybe do a little more research on the (L) sib thing before being blinded by the markup and slandering it outright.
     
  4. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Here we go again....

    IF MA wanted this to benefit players more so then themselves and STILL get their decay fees..It would have been just as simple to make UL versions of weapons that max at lower levels. SIB is bullshit and L does nothing for the economy other then drain ped. MA's trend twords the game is to suck the life from it as quickly as possible. All this talk about growth is BS. The only growth they want is liquidated assets to be able to shuffle it out to other places less under world scrutiny. Its only logical buisness to maximise returns on income and having major money dormant in EU is bad buisness. L makes it much faster and less obvious to do this hence the reasoning for its existance. If they did not want the money off the EU books then they would have just as easily made all lower level UL gear for low and mid range players.

    There is more to what happens in EU's economy then just EU's economy look at the over all picture and many many things become really clear quite quickly. If you want to invest in your self and the growth of EU Id suggest rethinking your use of L. If you simply wanna line MA's pockets Rock On and keep using this stuff.
     
  5. Addz

    Addz Member

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    Bill that is your opinion. But this is a FACT. I get better dps and eco out of my X1(L) (including markup) than out of my adjusted m61a5 (one of the most eco weapons in the game).

    You can carry on about it all you like and state opinions but the cold hard facts don't lie, and to certain people at certain times (L) is definitely the way to go. Weather or not your play style and deposit patterns/capabilities allow you to take advantage of it or not is another issue all together.

    You are right though, these same weapons as an unL version would do just as well. However then we would have issues where the crafters wouldn't have an ongoing market for their goods.

    I'd love for some crafters to come in and give their perspective on the L vs. unL debate.
     
  6. Jamira

    Jamira Member

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    I tested SIB at Genesis Tesla and Rainbow sword. SIB means for me: I cannot use the full damage rate = high costs + NOT increased skilling = VERY BAD eco compared to my UL Katsuichi Determination. This SIB is a joke ... or at least another fine method of PED card draining. I stopped the use of this swords immediately and skilled my LB again using my Determinations until I got the full damage with the L-swords.

    But this weapons are still way too expensive for me. I used them occassionally for bigger mobs in the past. But I stopped this also. I don't hunt anymore for MA's fiscal benefit.

    I didn't check (L) armor parts or (L) ranged weapons. Maybe there are differences. Since I don't use ranged weapons and I was lucky enough to complete my UL Jaguar set a few weeks ago, there is no need for me for further investigations. (Only L-vehicles survived this process.) FILE CLOSED.
     
  7. Atlan Leticron

    Atlan Leticron Active Member

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    Man, to say it it on your own words, that crp you say is just sht.

    I am a weapon crafter, and I love the L weapons.
    I am a former hunter and on the few occasions I hunt these day's I use my own crafter weapons.
    And it works better than the UL weapons.

    Removing the L weapons and make repairing a skill is just shooting the crafters in public.
    First, hunters will just skill up in repairing themself, and whit removing the L weapons you remove the flow for crafters.
    We get stuck with a small market of UL weapons since everyone will repair them self.
    Second, try to find someone you can trust with a high value weapon.
    It add's more to the scammer market.

    Regards,
    Ion
     
  8. Addz

    Addz Member

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    Yeah this idea of players repairing the weapons would get hella frustrating if i had to go find a crafter every 2 hours to repair my stuff. Especially on things like armor where they become less effective as they take dammage. :/
     
  9. TimUnleashed

    TimUnleashed Forum Official Pro Users

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    Addz, you asked for a crafter's input, so here's my two pecs. My opinion's biased towards armour since that's my specialty:

    It's important to us at Southern Fortress Engineering that L armour exists. If we do things right (convenience, reliability etc), then people will come back to us for more armour when it breaks.

    SFE is but a cog in the works, however the important point is that if L has the right stats that people will want to use it, AND it's simple to get hold of, then it encourages turnover in the game (crafters crafting, miners and hunters mining and hunting ingredients for the crafters, crafters crafting tools for the miners and hunters etc), and that's really good for the in-game economy and for MindArk's books. I want MindArk to remain a financially healthy company so that this game stays around for years to come. L is an important and helpful part of that, so I support it in principle.

    The challenge, of course, is to make it so that it IS better than UL, so that people WILL want to use it.

    In terms of armour, here's what I understand to be the salient points:

    • L armour performs perfectly right down till it breaks - no inconvenience of having to constantly repair it to keep it performing well (when UL armour is at x% of full repair it gives x% of full protection).
    • L armour has much higher durability, up to 25% higher I believe the maths says. Which means you can pay up to 125% for it and still be getting equivalent value to what you get when you repair your UL armour.
    • L armour doesn't have a TT+markup when you buy it. Can be highly convenient.
    • UL DOES have a TT+markup when you buy it, and you can theoretically get that back again when you sell it. Hence it's theoretically not a net loss to pay markup when you buy it. Hence it's completely irrelevant to the L vs UL debate.
    • All that remains is the cost per unit decay. IF you can get L to stack up as an equivalent to UL in that department, and IF it is straightforward to get hold of your L requirements, then I'd go with L any day for the convenience of:
      a) the armour lasting longer
      b) not having to cough up a TT+markup
      c) being able to rely on full performance right up until it breaks
     
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  10. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Everyone has an opinion. None are bad so no need to get personal on that...

    Removing L weapons would not kill the weapon crafters if the skill needed to repair a weapon is at the level of the crafted weapon. It would be a subskill that grew in parallel with the crafting skills main prof. That way a weaponsmith could not do armor and an armorer could not repair weapons. By the way I feel this should also apply to other gear such as tools and cloths. Oh and guess what... in doing this we just made shops a viable invetment again..Now a dedicated crafter sets up a shop..crafts his wares to stock his shop. Then mans his shop to do repairs. Many STILL have to go to shops to find gear anyway.

    Not many hunters could afford to craft their own gear AND hunt. Thats just not financially doable unless yer already in the quarter mil club already. If MA makes the repair skill in paralel with the craft skills then the avg Joe could NOT do his own repairs.

    As far as trust... The upper level crafters have been around long enough they have built customer bases to sell to, I Seriously doubt they would piss that away to steal back an item they could already make. Yes on the lower levels this would take away from the crafters a little but once your into pumpin rounds into atrox level of hunting that is beyond the casual crafters reach which is where the meat and potatos would be. The ones with most of the uber gear have chipped most skills in all 3 professions anyway so the loss of their repairs would be minimal AND the worry over uber item stealing will diminish further.. Besides you guys with the best gear are already trusting crafters to tier items for you. This could also be cured if MA got off their ass and set up a secure system like other games where item could be repaired without it actually changing hands. The scamming goes on only because MA allows it to.

    The only major drawback for a dedicated crafter with this system would be his ass would have to actually play the game and be at the terminal and not afk auto clicking.
     
  11. warpath

    warpath Member

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    I do think your idea is novel and has some merit Cyborg bill, but I personally hope it never happens. I hate the thought of running around trying to find someone to repair my gear so I can hunt. I only get to play for like 2 hours a day when things are busy at work and I like to spend every second of that I can killing stuff. Being on in peak Aussie time, most of the rest of the world is tucked up in bed, so that would leave only a few people with the nescessary skills to do what I need. Then I would have to hope they if they are on that they are not busy doing something else.

    I am sure there are ways around this, but until they are sorted out I can't support the idea.


    PS
    just thought I should add, I am pretty much an UL item user, the only L i use is my vehicles, faps and I have a set of hermes.
     
  12. Jamira

    Jamira Member

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    Better and easier to call "my" crafter(s) for a repair of UL items or have a look for another crafter if no of them is online or let the gear unrepaired for the next hunt (using the weapon reserve from storage) and repair it all after ... than ... hanging around at auction, looking for the missing (L)-parts, probably without success, left behind without armor and weapons.

    Regarding the security: There is already a secure system of lending items. I can give away my vehicles to someone else without fear to been robbed.

    Beside of that: I use Jaguar and highend blades. They are no crafted items (L). It's all looted. Warpath, if you could make sure to deliver 2 Genesis rainbow swords at 101% to me every day and a full set of Jag armor (L) each week for <125% and one FAP (L) comparable to 2600, I would start thinking about it. But neither you nor other crafters can guarantee this to me. My UL items DO guarantee it to me. The limit of them is my wallet.
     
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  13. Tikki

    Tikki Member

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    I think you all have covered the eco side very well. For me just starting as a noob the eco matters but there is another side that matters as well. I think one bonus that UL offers is the benefit of being "old faithful." Its been there with you for a long time. It was the gun or sword that got you that hof or global. It has in a sense a benefit born of its longevity. I think L loses that feeling. When its done its just trash. Thats all that it amounts too. I mean you cant even recycle it (wouldnt that be cool- wheres the recycle bin?) So its possible that L may (in future) be more economical but it wont carry the same affection and emotional value that goes with UL items. I think Jamira you demonstrated that when you talked about your UL swords. So yes I know its a pedless argument ;) but I think that it does have some bearing on the mood of players.
    Whats your take?
     
  14. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Well..the economy has tanked. Having only 3 viable professions leaves little room to grow. That MUST come from somewhere for the "Platform" to survive. MA forcing everyone to be a hunter will only push more and more people away. FPC throwing every fly by night gimmik into Calypso is only maing it a massive digital dump.

    Old professions that are missing and new ones HAVE to be made if the "Platform" will be able to grow. Getting rid of the L gear and adding that sub profession to crafting would make a nice start twords that happening. In the end MA still gets their money, players have new ways to sustain themselves in game and it all grows as one. The lack of income producing elements for our side is what is killing the game. This all started with the introduction of L gear IMO. MA, FPC, and all future plant partners need to wake up to the fact that if we cant survive reasonably in this universe then they wont survive either as more planets with same or less players obviously means less for everyone until it all decays to zero.
     
  15. XeroX

    XeroX Active Member Pro Users

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    Yeah I totaly agree with that but I hope Arkadia will be allowed to introduce something which changed that and I think it should better be UL to do that. When all I can loot on a planet is (L) I just leave it. Seriously. This is one of the biggest "push away" factors for me a planet can have and also the reason why I left NI now. Having usefull items in loot window is allways nice... but when they turn to dust after a few shots it´s not so nice.... or are removed from your storage... ohhh wait now THAT is another story. ,)
     
  16. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Sadly there will be fewer and fewer UL items introduced. With UL items MA has to keep that money "On the Books" The switch to L gear was simply to put liquid assets into MA's pockets immediately. Showing so much dormant money on a spread sheet looks bad to investors.

    MA liquidated as much as they could to dump into the cryengine conversion and learned they liked having that cash in pocket now. They now have their own laundering service which I think will be the end all to the universe when some outside governments start paying attention to how much money IS being run thru EU and siphoned off.

    But that is a tad off topic for the thread. L is the new way of life within the platform and that wont change no mater how many PP's are added. The only thing that will truely save this whole thing is if MA decides to even out the economy better. Costs of 50 dollars a night on the low side to play with 40% or more loss now is what is killing the game. When someone depos 100 USD to play and it doesnt last 4 hours before its halved theres a HUGE problem.

    Like I said adding more revenue producing means for the player base is what is needed more then new toys or gear. UL or not.
     
  17. Jamira

    Jamira Member

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    All I can say is: I play on a more or less daily base. I want to be able to go on melee hunts every day for 2-6 hours. Atm it is'nt possible with L-items (armor, weapons, FAPs). IF it would be possible I woudn't care for that. At the other hand: I don't want to spent more than 15 minutes in auction per day. So at the day MA will be able to deliver a constant stream of all the items I need, I will start thinking about using L-items. Until that day ... ;)
     

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