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Limited Versus Unlimited - Items

Discussion in 'Wishlist' started by starfinder, Nov 15, 2010.

  1. starfinder

    starfinder Member

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    I would like to see Arkadia keeping true to the theme of the planet. The universe is set in the future - so please... No digging in the ground with shovels. I would imaging we were to have "high tech equipment" which could find the treasure(s).

    Also, implement "real life" skills in this process. This is something I had hoped would be implemented in mining - ie. the orefinders would not produce an "arrow" to the location of the mineral. But rather show you a sort of topological image of the ground where the different colors would indicate various density of the ground. It would then be up to you (real life skill) to decipher where to plant your claim - and your claim would then excavate whichever minerals there were under the marker. With increased skills (game skills) the map would be more and more accurate.

    The same could be done for arkadia - Place a bomb on the surface, detonate it.. Look for interesting ground density and start excavating. Please do not just make this universe "click click click click.. deposit.. click click click click" -- we already have that.

    Furthermore I deeply wish for a new "damage type" so none of the old gear will work on the planet.
    Or - if MA demands that you do have blp and laser damage as well as the regular armor types, at least make some new ones as well. "Microwave damage".. Would penetrate the regular armor as if it wasent there.. Then make a new type of armor which could protect against this damage, and make mobs that would not be hurt by BLP or Laser but also only were vulnerable to the new damage type. Then make sure to ONLY create (L) weapons and armor for this damage type as this would make sure you never run into the demand for new people to join the game each day for everything to keep its value.

    With L items its not the increase of participants thats important - but rather the combined playtime of the userbase.
    More players -> less playtime per participant are required to keep the market steady. But im sure you have some skilled economists working on the balancing formula of the game. :)

    So, yeah... Two things I would like to see from Arkadia.
    Make real life skills an important aspect of the game. I dont want another "click click click" universe.
    And make a new weapon type so the old ubers starts at the same place as the rest of us - make it an even fight.
     
  2. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    L is what started the down fall of EU IMO. thats where the greed factor went wonky. L is just a ped drain with an illusion of usefulness attached to it.. Sorta like fragments are just icons for no loot. What should have been done was to add skills for repairing weapons not a pay to have miracles performed and give you a perfect condition item back machine. This would keep more ped circulating in the economy for players to use and MA would still gain the decays from the items being used. Opening up new professions that give more players a chance for success and growth will only mean growth for the entire system..Making more systems that just drain that system does not allow for any growth only loss. That is the problem we are facing now.. Far too many drains and not enough oppertunities for growth.

    As far as Arkadia being click click click deposit click click click only MA can change that. I dont understand why people keep placing economical and financial responsabilities on planet partners who have ZERO control over that..Only MA can "Adjust" that for better or worse...
     
  3. Snape

    Snape Master of the BanHammer Staff Member PAF Administrator

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    I partly agree with you there CB.

    Limited stuff can work nicely in the economy...the problem with it is that MA (originally) / FPC (now) insisted on this IDIOTIC idea that most of the Limited stuff require some sort of the rare, and thus expensive, materials in their construction. I mean look at the main Limited armour suits...most of the special ones either require rare materials (Luna, Flare Filters; Sema, Langotz; Orca, Ultra Cold Fabric; Lich,LMP; Spectre, Langotz and SMP; Solir, Platinum; Dragon/Expedition, Dunkel) or the BP's for making the certain parts are so rare that the prices are super inflated, which then has to be passed on. So taking just this into account, L has and is a slowly inceasing Fail for the most part.

    However, if someone was going to go down the path of introducing Limited gear for a new planet, this is what they would want to avoid and if they did then L stuff can work as long as the "ingredients" are not made stupidly rare.
     
  4. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    The Main reason L gear is such a fail is it gets decayed 3 times just to get produced... Items are decayed to get the materials guns, armors, finders, excavators, refiners. Then there is a massive loss of the materials in the crafting p[rocess with the best possible chance to make one if everything is perfect is only 42%.. Then there is the decay of the item during use..

    The illusion of L being eco is many only focus on the slower decay of its use only.. not the loss to get the item made and in their hands. Yes a UL item that is crafted has the same decays to produce it but only once is that decay lost to the system..not reptatively to keep a viable amount of that L weapon in circulation.

    Not to mention SIB only means "Suckered into buying" with all the nerfs made since L's inception. No one uses them as meant to in the sib period as they are "Un Eco" they are only used if the player usingthem is maxed in most cases. But I been down this road on this conversation before and many will argue their need regardless.
     
  5. Snape

    Snape Master of the BanHammer Staff Member PAF Administrator

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    Carry on the discussion here please. Ta
     
  6. warpath

    warpath Member

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    I don't really agree with making dmg types from calypso etc useless on arkadia, you are kind of saying a bit f&*k you to all the players who have invested in expensive gear over the years.

    New dmg types are a good idea though, but I think that if they cut through all existing types of armour they would very quickly become the uber guns and still be out of the reach of the average play because of demad for them. Similar story with armours.
     
  7. Jamira

    Jamira Member

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    I use exactly one sort of L-items: vehicles. All other equipment of mine is UL. This L/SIB is betrieing and exploiting. I am simply not rich enough for this L-thingy.

    Example: I am good enough in longblades to use (no more learning period, no more SIB) a Genesis Rainbow Sword (L). The markup is ~101%. Looks good, but isn't good for me. I have to pay a lot of money at once. Often I am not that fluid. I can repair my Determinations (2x 120 PED = 240 PED) but not buy a Rainbow ~350 PED. But that is not the main reason I don't use the L-swords. The main reason is: If I would be able to pay for them there wouldn't be enough in auction. Solely for me ... not to speak about other melee hunters. There wouldn't be enough Rainbow swords at Calypso for my need only, even if I would buy each one I see at auction. That's bullshit, isn't it?

    Another aspect: I cannot be sure to get a weapon next day. And if I extend my thoughts to L-FAP and L-armor (with higher markup as the blade), I would be in a very bad situation: I had to spend a lot of time watching the auction and put in a lot of money in bids instead of going out there into the wilderness and kill mad mobs. I don't like this idea. I am not a trader. I am a hunter!

    Last point against (L): I trace all my hunts. I notice loot+markup and repair after each hunt. This is very easy except I use L-items. I completed my set of Jaguar a few weeks ago. I had to use L-parts before. I can tell ya! Pure stress to trace the decay of each single L-part as well! I hated it so much.
     
  8. kalanen

    kalanen Member

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    MindArk

    Arkadia
     
  9. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Well....That may make L a little more viable...Only if two things are able to happen IMO. 1 MA does NOT get to set the requirements for the crafting of items. 2. MA does not change the stats, eco, base tt, or availability of bp's to make them.

    My faith in MA for a balanced L system went away with the truth of SIB actually existing after the nerfs 6 months after L was introduced.

    SIB to me STILL means "suckered into buying" regardless of the few Plus's they may hold with their use.
     
  10. Snape

    Snape Master of the BanHammer Staff Member PAF Administrator

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    oh i agree with you. In its current state, the whole Limited industry is a FAIL imo. its needs some servere overhaul in order to get it to a point where i can be viable again
     
  11. starfinder

    starfinder Member

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    Yes, thats another way of making the system not depending on the increase of players.
    To those of you who say "L items has killed EU". Well, I trust you havent played too long?
    Back in 4.0 Angel items were TT food.. I have TT'ed numerous Angel helmets - think I had like 10 in storage. And at first glance you might say "Why wouldent you want a universe where everything is affordable?".. But if you just wait half a second. If everything is more or less TT (Shadow were TT + 250 PED - I think I sold a set of shins to Leafren for that).. Then there would be absolutely no "profit" in anything. Everythign would just be TT food.. And if everything is TT food.. Then get ready to start depositing all the time as no one is paying for your play time (markup money)...

    This is why I like L items.. There is always a demand for them. Back in 4.0 there wasent even a demand for angel items.. so they were TT'ed.. and if you TT angel items.. its VERY hard to loot ANYTHING which can be soldt at anything above TT making your profits only depending on MA... With items which has a markup.. you get your profit from the players.. and thats at the end of the day easier than getting it from the corporation that runs the universe as they surely will ensure they will never loose (over a long periode of time) on you.

    Salamander dosent protect too well against atroxes.. So its already like this on Calypso. I merely say, dont just do it on the armor side of a fight.. Use it on the weapon side of a fight as well.. Soem animals/creatures/whatever wouldent even take damage from BLP weapons.
     
  12. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Back when you played in 4.0 the game was in its infancy as far as the economy and number of players. Back then the number of different armors I am sure was limited therefore having a need to over populate the game with them. As the game grew as well as the playerbase changes were made for the economy sake and for the game play sake to start limiting what was available. That is waht EU needed to grow. There was a need to fill for players to have something to invest in that also had a function tht would make it hold value.

    Over the years (the past 4 that I have played specificly) I have seen the constant devaluation of in game things from toys to Land. Without that inherrant value in items and such there is truely no reason to play EU that can not be staisfied by playing a fee based MMO. Limited gear contributed to this in a MAJOR way as now there is less value in an ever decreasing number of in game things to draw the players that want to invest in a game like this.

    Limited shit added to the game broke down the financial want to invest in it to bascly properties. A problem that will kill the game. Not all that want a piece of the EU pie can afford the properties that will give them a reasonable return for their investment. Add to that MA's unpredictability in the laast two years and noone feels secure enough to invest in EU there fore many have wandered away as we have seen.

    Right bnow the only true draw to EU is the roll of the dice for the big aths. It has no redeeming features left for investing other then that or the big properties liek CP and CND. Without the middle ground of unlimited items that will hold some value this will all slide down the drain leaving only addicted gamblers rolling the dice on CP and CND to finance the game.

    Bottom line is without something "Real" to strive for EU doesnt cut it in the gaming world as "Special" like it once did. Its jut a really expensive video slot machine and does not even equate to a video game to please the masses.
     
  13. starfinder

    starfinder Member

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    The simple fact of the matter is that if you have an unlimited item that can be repaired from a terminal.. You can sell me that item ONCE and then you will never see me again.
    If you either sell me a L item, or I have to visit you again to get my item repaired. Then you have a steady customer. If you only deal in "non L" .. terminal repaired items.. you better hope for a constant increase of the playerbase so you continue to have customers.... Thats all im saying :)
     
  14. Snape

    Snape Master of the BanHammer Staff Member PAF Administrator

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    Yep and with a little alteration and forethought, the Limited industry can reach it potential.
     
  15. Cyborg Bill

    Cyborg Bill Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Im not saying that L does not have a place in EU. I am saying that going to ALL L gear would kill the reason to bother playing mid level. There are no incentives to skill as the glass ceiling is simply far to expensive for most and I am sorry I like to play EU but Im not here to just pull my pud and hand money to MA every time I click a button.

    I just hit 170k total skills (not much of that is useless skills like scanning to pad totals) I am level 52 in prospecting and low to mid 40's in my hunting skills. I think after 4 years of playtime, the financial investment to play all that time, I deserve to have something to strive for that is obtainable not some piece of crap that I can use for less then 4 hours and have to throw away cause its broken. L leaves nothing to show for its use other then a few measly skills that can be gained in its life span which are now in the toilet other then the ability to use an even bigger disposable item that again leaves me empty handed.

    If I wanted throw away things in my life I would have bought a few Chevette's back in the day. Is EU's future to be the Chevette of the gaming world? or should it have something to hold structure within it so it does not crumble?
     
  16. Jamira

    Jamira Member

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    It went to a new level for me with the tiering system. I can (theoretically) bring up my UL swords to unbelievable stats. That was a demand of all melee hunters long time ago. L-items are simply too expensive for me. I am not that rich. I like to be able to repair my UL Determination at 50% and go out hunting and - tahdah! - get a HoF and be able to repair everything after that. Costs: 60 PED. In this situation I wouldn't be able to buy another 320 PED L-sword. Not to speak about that there are not enough swords in auction ... only for me. If I could pay for them I myself would need 2-3 Genesis Rainbow swords per day ... only me ... every day ... lol ... guess that won't work.

    And yes, I love to have more or less unique items ... a tier 10 Katsuichi Determination ... okay, nothing special. But a tier 10 Castorian Combat EnBlade-10 ... hmm, crit 520 ... not bad ;-)
     
  17. Snape

    Snape Master of the BanHammer Staff Member PAF Administrator

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    Don't get me wrong, i agree with you, i guess I've just been looking at it from an armour point of view only as that is where my knowledge and experience (and business interest) are. And that's my beef with the system, because of the short-sightedness of certain people, Limited Armour has so much potential that is so far gone largely untapped.
     
  18. Fox

    Fox Member

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    The (L)imited items were introduced because of the crafters! People, did you already forgot? The crafters were crying about their small income! So the (L)imited items were born. The plan was, that the crafters do the work and profit a bit, the hunters and the miners get their share. And that on a regular basis.

    But this didn't happen. The balancing is missing. The prices of the items are in most cases far to high to be useful.

    And again, I'm not using (L) items. Mostly because the problem is to get them after you decayed the old one. While hunting it happened that my X5 (for example), stopped working. Okay, I have a Mad4 with me for the case. But the Mad4 I repair everytime I repair my stuff after a mining trip. And I don't have to pay ludicrous prices to get one again!
    The Armors are the same thing. I wear Ghoul and against Robots I have a Salamander with me. Because I repair them after each trip, I always have a working armor. But (L) armor??? You have to be nuts to go hunting with it, if you don't have spare parts with you! Against high level mobs, what do you do, if your harness stops working in the middle of a fight? And can you really go out an hunt with an armor below 10%?
    Okay, they make sense for specialised hunting. But I'm not a hunter, I am a miner! I need a armor for most possibilities! And I can't take three or more sets with me! I have to carry my ore! The Ghoul works fine for me. I don't even want a Shadow, because it is too expensive in repairs. But what (L) armor would fit? And please: the eMine is a clowns outfit and not an armor for miners. 16kg and 20 points against shrapnell - yeah, as if I'm digging for fragmentation grenades...
     
  19. Jamira

    Jamira Member

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    Are you sure about that? I often loot low MU L-items. They are not crafted and no crafter has any benefit from it when I TT them immediately after the hunt.
     
  20. Fox

    Fox Member

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    Yes, I am sure of it. If you remeber, before the (L) crap you got TT guns in the loot. :p
     

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