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Just delete the whole pirate section

Discussion in 'PvP' started by Oboy, Sep 22, 2011.

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  1. Oboy

    Oboy Active Member

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    Every moderator on this forum thinks that overmoderating is the key

    As tim unleashed was locking up yet another thread this is what I was typing

    "end the thread? And just make the OP upset and more irational?


    Over moderating is not the answer, truth and respect is.


    Pls dont delete anything. thats just cause for more trouble (in my opinion)

    Yet again... The issue will arise instead of letting it run a respectful course, if a player is acting irational, Temp ban them.. But deleting thread after thread...

    Why do we even bother posting and making our thoughts known if more often than not a irational moderator will shut it down?

    Just get rid of the pirate thread or deal with it properly and maybe we can resolve the issue!

    * Honestly out of my last 5 posts 4 have been in a thread thats been closed..

    Thank you moderators for making me feel like my opinion does not matter, or that somehow my time is not a concern to those moderating
     
  2. Puck

    Puck Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    I have no issues with the current moderation style. This is a privately owned forum, not a wordpress blog. Rules have been defined, and consequences inacted.

    It's unfortunate (for you) that you disagree with the moderation efforts. I don't anticipate they're going to relax them anytime soon. I hope they don't.
     
  3. Mischief

    Mischief Member

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    Someone asked me why I wasn't more active on this forum.
    Current moderation standards is the simple answer to that.
    As soon as a topic get heated it's either locked or deleted. At least that is my experience from lurking the forum as "quiet observer"

    Moderation should allow debates to get a bit loud in my opinion. First I would do is to allow that.
    Second I would make clear, and state it in a rule if not already, that no naming of avatars is allowed if the only reason is to flame that avatar. If done like that this forum will grow and be more popular.
     
  4. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    The instructions about the the space PVP forum are pretty clear:

    "You may post the name of a pirate player as long as it is stated as a public advisory notice and not intended as a flaming of the person. ... If your post is just a way to whine and moan and let off steam then you are forbidden from naming and flaming the person."

    The threads that were deleted or closed violated these rules.
     
  5. Lee DeLioncourt

    Lee DeLioncourt Arkadian Outrider Platinum Member

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    We do have rules regarding the naming of avatars and flaming etc for this section:
    http://www.arkadiaforum.com/showthread.php?1471-Naming-Space-Pirate-Players
    http://www.arkadiaforum.com/showthread.php?1472-Naming-Space-Knight-Players

    As a team we worked hard to sort out this section to allow players who are involved in Space to be able to warn other players of pirates and commend those who are on the 'other side' of the role play. Considering how much mod work it has turned into I think the suggestion made with this thread and it's title is one we will definately discuss and consider.

    I am sorry to hear that anyone thinks the mod group on this forum is overly harsh and unfair, we actually pride ourselves on being the opposite and have regular and frequent discussions to help each other make the right choices when they are difficult. You would be surprised I believe to know just how hard we work to not allow our emotions or personal feelings to come into any mod decisions, and to counter balance each other effectively.

    I chose to close that last thread because there are now multiple threads on the subject, lots of heated feelings, and I saw no value in more and more of the same at this point. The problems mentioned are being discussed and we all must wait for official answers. I believe by the way that we rarely delete threads, we may put them in a moderation queue to be discussed before deciding how to mod it or whether to close it, but doing that is a temporary thing and not a deletion. Closing a thread that has served it's purpose is also not deletion.

    Thanks
     
  6. Oboy

    Oboy Active Member

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    I respect your opinion and your understanding.

    Here is my point and you proved it very effectively in the last paragraph.

    You are 100% correct. That multiple threads start up when you delete 1. That is a side effect of closing threads before they have run there due course. When you put a thread in "Limbo" for what you moderators see. Us Customers see a void in a topic which we feel passion for.

    This is where you must understand OUR frustration. I know its a give and take, both sides have issues to deal with.

    Remember this is a business, in business the customer is always right!
     
  7. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    This is not a business, but even in business, the customer doesn't dictate how the shop is run.
     
  8. rick_janson

    rick_janson Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    I think you read that paragraph backwards.. She said he closed a thread *because* there were multiples. The multiples showed up *before* the thread was closed.
     
  9. Oboy

    Oboy Active Member

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    This IS a business, with investors..

    Entropia Itself it slated for IPO in late 2012.

    It is a business.

    You may feel that customers don't dictate how a business is run. But if you trully think that. I dont suppose you've been involved in ANY succesful business's

    I invest in the stock market. I am a business major for christ sake!

    as for any succesful business it DOES cator to its client.

    I dont know any business that has lasted through the years without catering to its clients and evolving with the times.

    Take a look at the most succesful business in the world right now. its Apple. And you know what for a period of time, Apple wasn't catering to a new client and changing with the times, and guess what they floundered!

    Once apple changed its business plan and started listening to what the customers wanted they changed to go from a PC business to a More diversified portfolio. Since that change they revived a company that was destined for failure.

    On the other hand you have a company like netflix (more or less your line of reasoning) They where slow to adapt to the market. They thought they where so big and powerful that the customer would fall in line... Well, that didn't happen. And now you have a company scrambling to cut the loss's.

    there is your example of what catering to clients, and not catering to clients can lead to on a larger scale.

    Arkadia is a great place with a lot of great ideas.That doesn't mean they got it right at the start or by changing with the times they are weakening. It shows to me a solid relationship between Business and customer. When we work together in a professional manner to positively effect the game thats when things are proactive and lead to a better future.
     
  10. Oboy

    Oboy Active Member

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    It was a different forum mod who quarentined the most recent post.
     
  11. rick_janson

    rick_janson Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    You were citing Lee's post, however..
     
  12. Oboy

    Oboy Active Member

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    Thank you Captain Obvious!

    And.... your pt?

    We where talking about 2 diffrent deletions, with the same relevance to the issue at hand.

    If you have something prudent to this conversation you should continue on. If not maybe try thinking before you type in the future :)

    I understand it can be hard to keep track, more gets deleted on these forums than should ever be. That is clearly a issue.
     
  13. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    I thought the topic was the forum, not Arkadia Studios or Mindark.
     
  14. Oboy

    Oboy Active Member

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    Has it been that much of a diversion?

    I am sorry if my thread isn't staying on your topic.

    I guess this goes to show everyone needs to judge each player by there own actions and let things run there due course.

    Is a lot of different personalities in the group. Maybe Advisor is a strong word.. Maybe some should be called
    Arkadian vest crew?

    Seems like many of the people where picked simply for being the first to apply. I think its about time to kick out the bad apples! I mean really, has there been any review period yet since they recieved the vest?

    Comming from Arkadias team its a suprise they would let so many novices in with the ranks of the few of the group who trully are special. And we all are aware of who they are from how they have been before they got there vest. Not because of a vest....
     
  15. rick_janson

    rick_janson Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Just to be clear, Cyrus just posted that there will be a review of the Advisers.

    And, I know I wasn't extremely clear, Oboy... So I sent you a PM about it. But there's still no need for insults.
     
  16. Dab

    Dab Member

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    This post is hilarious.

    Apple is not the most successful company in the world. What criteria could you possibly using to assert this?

    Netflix lost 4% of their customers and will see a large increase in revenue, hardly a failure on their part.

    The customer is not always right. When you get out into the real world you will see that this old truism is false. Ask any doctor or lawyer. You won't make if far in most businesses if you cater to every whim of every customer.

    "I am a business major." is equivalent to a woman saying "I am a mother."

    Maybe they don't teach the 80/20 rule anymore?

    Thanks for making me laugh anyway.
     
  17. TimUnleashed

    TimUnleashed Forum Official Pro Users

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    As I understand it, the topic of this thread is basically that we are overmoderating. I am hearing that the feeling you're getting is that your opinion doesn't matter. I'm also picking up in general that you, Oboy, are probably not the only one who feels like people should be free to express their opinions a fair bit more than we are currently allowing.

    I hear you.

    I even understand what you are saying.

    Putting myself in your position, I can see why it feels like that.

    In the case of the Stagger issue itself, we have had to act decisively because things got very ugly. Perhaps we haven't done a very good job of making ourselves understood, and perhaps we haven't done everything right.

    I hope that people don't take this one issue as a reflection of how we deal with everything in general. Nothing I have seen yet has been anywhere as divisive as this issue. This situation is truly testing out the status quo, and hopefully as it resolves itself we can shake out a few positive changes in the way things happen. That's certainly what I think most of our community would like to achieve, anyway.


    ***​


    I would like to set a few things straight, in the hope that perhaps we can progress positively from there. Given the nature of the OP, there's probably a fair bit we should be free to say without worrying too much about it being considered off-topic.


    ***​


    Perhaps our actions don't APPEAR to display that we agree with this, but let me say that in no uncertain terms, you and I, and the other forum mods, are all on the same page here. No question. I'll give you an example.

    There is a huge uproar about Stagger being an Adviser and a Pirate, and all sorts of threads get out of hand while the very touchy subject of it being fine to kill and steal from people in Entropia, is finally mooted at its deepest level, from all sorts of perspectives. We start to see what people really think. We see this as a great thing to have happening, but at the same time we start to see people getting vicious, and breaking rules, and topics getting out of hand.

    1. We move one WAY out-of-hand thread to the moderation queue, and advise that we await further advice from the A-Team before allowing it to continue. I still think that was the right thing to do. Can you imagine what that thread would look like now if it had been left to run its course?

    2. We take the Advisers aside to discuss the issue among themselves (a currently unfinished process).

    3. We witness the raising of several more threads. We say repeatedly that we need time to find out what the rules are, but that doesn't stop people from doing things like calling each other thieves. So we ping people for rule breaches. Threads continue to get out of hand, so we close (still visible!) them.​

    As far as I'm concerned, that's truthful and respectful. We said why it's happening, and have not issued one warning over the whole affair despite blatant rule breaches all over the place. Allowing things to degenerate further, I don't think would have been respectful to the people in the community who are prepared to discuss things in a civil manner. So that's where we draw the line. At civil discussion.

    I'm glad I closed the thread that prompted the creation of this one, because both Mischief and Oboy came to this thread with a much more civil approach. As you can see, I'm happy to converse with you guys in such a situation, and I encourage further discussion here. This thread won't be closed unless it becomes like the others that did get closed: a place for insults, baseless accusations, taunts, and/or rule breaches.

    Thank you for starting a polite, meaningful discussion. I hope that at the very least, you feel listened to. Unfortunately, I'm not going to agree with all of what you're saying :p

    ***​

    You may well be a business major, and you may well even be highly successful in business, but that does not make your opinion infallible or even necessarily correct. In this instance, I disagree.

    The customer is human, and as such is fallible.

    A businessperson and a customer engaged in business, are two human beings interacting. Sometimes, a win-win deal just can't be done. Most of the time the businessperson finds a way to win the business. Sometimes, the customer is wrong and not worth the expense.

    There are plenty of instances where it is a much better strategy for a business to get rid of a troublesome customer, than assume they're right and give them whatever they want.

    In this forum, if we did everything that everybody wanted because all of them are always right, then we'd be changing the rules 15 times a day and we would very quickly lose any sense of where to draw the line, and our marbles.

    It is common in business coaching to advise, for example, that a business analyse where it spends its customer service time. Often, upon such analysis, a business discovers that, for example, 80% of its time is spent on the most difficult 20% of its customers. The business coach will ask the question, "why don't you get rid of that 20% of your customers, and spend that 80% of the time you've now got back, finding more customers like the ones you kept?" Sometimes, on further analysis, that's the best thing to do.

    Unfortunately, that takes the analogy too far to be applicable to the situation at hand, and I won't be too impressed if I start seeing claims that I think we should get rid of 20% of our forum members or something :)

    My point is simply that making all forum members happy is not the top priority because it would be a waste of time, and highly destructive to the mission.

    Being truthful, respectful, and guiding discussions in the right direction, however, is high on our list (and believe me, I'm listening good and hard when I'm hearing that we're not achieving that).

    As Lee says, we are often (multiple times daily) in the background discussing how to achieve that, and doing our best to do it now.

    ***​

    I believe we are truthful about what we are doing. I don't feel we're deceitful.
    I believe we are respectful to those who behave respectfully.
    I believe we are respectful in our moderation of those who behave disrespectfully.
    I believe we are swift in rectifying breaches of forum rules.

    Nevertheless, this is a the most divisive issue I think this forum has had to deal with, and I'm not expecting that we're going to please everyone. But I'll take THIS discussion about it any day, over some of the outrageous, baseless claims that are being made elsewhere.

    I agree that a successful business does cater to its client. It creates value and profits from that.

    I don't think Apple did what customers wanted, however. They didn't do the little one percenters to make them better than their competitors, which is what customers look at in comparing one business to another (they have better service, or cheaper prices, or more features, etc etc etc). No. Apple's success is due to the fact that it ignored what its customers thought they needed and created an entire blue ocean of value that people didn't even realise they wanted until they saw it. Catering to its clients' wishes and putting the customers' opinions above all else had nothing to do with it.

    Here are some quotes from Apple CEO Steve Jobs (until he resigned a few weeks back, dropping Apple's share value by 5% on the spot).

    “Unfortunately, people are not rebelling against Microsoft. They don’t know any better.”
    “You can’t just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they’ll want something new.”
    “It’s really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don’t know what they want until you show it to them.”


    ***​


    I think of it as a forum.

    It is a place for customer discussion, albeit a place provided by the business Arkadia. Our job as mods is to guide optimal discussion and ensure people abide by the rules. If people would prefer it to operate on different premises, or have a problem with the rules, then the discussion needs to be about the nature/fairness of the rules, not the mods who are running around trying to manage and enforce them.

    It seems that what you would like us to do (let things run further than we currently do) would mean allowing people to break the forum rules, and that's not in our mandate. We do let some things slide, but the rules are our guide for where to draw the line. While you're posting in here, accepting those rules, you simply have to expect us to do that. That's not to say the rules aren't subject to review or change. Make your arguments and we routinely listen!

    On this I agree with you :) I am confident that in this thread at least, we can work together in a positive manner. So far, in these first two pages, I think we have. I hope you will find that if things continue in this vein, you'll be quite free to express your opinions, be heard, and not be shut down.


    ***​


    This is a little off-topic, but I'm reminded of it because of the difficulty I sometimes have reconciling the reality I perceive, with what other people claim it to be:

    When the hunting competition began at the start of this month, all sorts of claims flew around about how Arkadia was catering for ubers, and people wanting to know why Arkadia didn't care about the people who couldn't afford or didn't have the time to keep up with that sort of thing. My perception of reality at that time was that this was the first competition out of many thus far, that had finally required people to get stuck into some serious hunting and beat their competitors, in order to win the prizes. At the time I had been thinking that if anything, Arkadia needed to do an uber comp or two to attract some high-spending players. So I did the research, and made this post. And as far as I recall, nobody really had anything to say to contradict it. I took from the experience that a lot of what was said, was really quite inaccurate.

    So how much attention should be paid to that sort of thing, in favour of keeping things civil, rational, and reasonable for the majority?
     
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  18. Chrome

    Chrome Active Member Pro Users

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    This made me laugh. ;)

    So, you are a business major?

    That means you don't even have a degree yet? :p
     
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  19. Snape

    Snape Master of the BanHammer Staff Member PAF Administrator

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    Hi Everyone,

    Just to pop in with my 2pec on a couple of points.

    • In response to the OPs main comment on deleting the whole Pirates Section: I'd love to personally, as IMO it's caused us far more hassle of late than I believe is really worth our time. BUT, after a fair amount of feedback from this forums community, and after much discussion amongst the admin group, we put that section together as per the communities request. If you don't want it any longer, then by all means please start a thread with a poll to see how many people want it or not and we will respond appropriately to the result of said poll.

    • Where a couple of people have claimed that we summarily delete multiple threads of the same thing, I would put forward that the majority of the time, we merge them and or close one with a link to the other. But yes, on occasion we do delete threads and posts, in accordance with the Forum Rules.

    • As for us moderating, we wouldn't need to if people took a few minutes to read the Forum Rules and carefully consider the content of the post or thread they are going to make.

      I have posted multiple times, that everyone is entitled to their opinion...what they are not entitled to is to force that opinion onto others or make it in an unnecessarily aggressive, insulting and uncivil manner. If you act like a civilised an mature adult here, you will have the opportunity to make you opinion and observations known to all that are willing to read and listen. If you are not willing to post in a civil manner then, prepare to be moderated and have your posts/threads deleted or edited ACCORDING TO THE FORUM RULES.

    • If you have an issue with any of the Forum Rules, there is a thread available to discuss whatever you want to in regards to those rules. That thread has been in existence for 10 months, yet NOT ONE PERSON who has complained about the moderation and/or rules lately has bothered to give their feedback in that thread. Please do so as we genuinely want your feedback both positive and negative.

    Finally, seeing as we are on the topic of Overmoderation, I would like to draw attention to Forum Rule 2J:

    Now that you have (hopefully) read it, could I make a point of saying that IF we over-moderated, this thread would have been closed, moderated or deleted as soon as one of the Mods had seen it and the OP would have been politely PM'd and pointed to the appropriate Forum Rule. As that is not the case, does it not therefore lend support to the case that we do not, in fact, overmoderate the forum?

    Feel free to PM me your thoughts or post in the Feedback sections provided.
     
  20. tayz

    tayz Member

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    To be perfectly honest, in the debate on "overmoderation", I dont believe that we have been overmoderated at all.
    Yes some subjects can get very heated at times and require more effort on behalf of the moderators, but generally they do an exellent, and sometimes a thankless job.
    They do let us "get away " with more than normal moderators would, but we do need reining in some times too. The Stagger issue being an excellent example. He represents the good in being an advisor and helping new players, the bad ( in a lot of peoples view ) in being a Pirate, which is legitimate gameplay, but he also represented Arkadia and all other Arkadians and the A-team in that he was given a position of trust and respect (Advisor) which conflicted with his legitimate gameplay of being a pirate.
    That deserved discussion and quite naturally it became quite passionate.

    Most of us are on Arkadia for one very simple reason - we wanted something better than was being offered by other planets, and we wanted to be treated with a little respect, which the A-team has done. Naturally we have become very passionate and protective of what we believe is the best that EU offers, and we dont want to see harm come to our new home. Stagger represents conflict. He has done nothing wrong, but the "morality", for want of a better word, of his gameplay swings wildly, as he represents all that is good and helpful and all that is bad and distrustful (in many peoples opinion of piracy).

    Our passions are what cause problems for moderators, the very same passions that create such a wonderful community and caring that no other planet can claim. Passions do tend to blinker or vision too - we see things one way, and resist more than normal to concede or even recognise anothers point of few.

    Dont get me wrong, I am also guilty of this passion and its blinkering effect, I believe most of us are, but without the passion we would just be another Calypso and that is exactly what we dont want.

    Moderating us means dealing with our emotional sides, its not just a simple matter of different opinions. Dealing with emotions is never easy.

    Piracy tends to bring out the worst in us, generally we are law abidding and morally sound IRL, and want our virtual world to be the same. There are those who see PVP/Piracy in the virtual world as an escape from RL in the extreme. Here they can kill and steal and become the moral opposite of what they are in real life - the ultimate escape from reality. Both are valid standpoints, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a pirate, its a game, and perhaps for some, a way to relieve the pressures of day to day life. Better to go kill a noob in space than to go kill a noob IRL. Others may enjoy the notoriety that piracy in a virtual world can bring, before they go back to a reality where they are barely noticed. Most, I suspect, just enjoy the thrill of the hunt from a "mob" that is unpredictable and sometimes vengeful.

    With that freedom to choose your "morality" also comes the consequence of that choice - hence the pirate tag.

    Just like RL, your virtual choices also have consequences, and with Piracy comes the tag Pirate and the kudos or shames that individuals choose to bestow upon them. If you dont want to be named a pirate, dont commit acts of piracy.
    One of the natural effects of piracy is notoriety, and word will be spread amongst the community of any and all pirates, its a natural protection for a community to ensure that its population is aware of any potentially "harmful" individuals. How many times have you been warned IRL that this person or that person is not to be trusted, or suspected of some wrongdoing? It happens all the time and is part of being human. Naming in the forums at least gives the named person a chance to defend their position, particularly if the accussation is untrue. Something akin to "your day in court". You have a chance to dispute any claim made against you, and face your accusser. This makes the Pirates section in the forum a very important tool for both the community at large, as well as the accussed. Much better than unfounded rumour. Taking away the Pirate section would not only distroy community trust of each other, but quite possibly cause a great deal of harm to someone innocent. Everyone has the right to defend themselves from an untrue accussation, and wasnt that the purpose of the section to start with? To prevent rumours, provide a community "noticeboard" and to give the accussed a chance to answer any false claims. Without it we are subject to bad information.


    Yes we are passionate, Yes some people will get carried away with things, its human nature. Yes we need moderating some times. We are passionate, but that is what makes us the community that we are - we care. When we stop caring, then we become Calypso, and when we become Calypso then we fail and the Arkadia we love dies.

    Leave the forum as it is.
    Moderate as you see fit.
    The status quo works for this community.


    Tayz
     
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