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Is MS atmospheric departure safe?

Discussion in 'Space' started by Neil, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    I've seen a few comments lately about whether the practice is safe or not. I'd like to open up a discussion thread to clarify the issues involved in making the decision whether to disembark a mothership at atmosphere or the station.

    I'll describe the practice for those who don't know what I'm talking about. There are three ways to leave a mothership.

    1) get booted off the guest list (you end up floating in space and die)
    2) while the ship is docked at a station, you can use the TP located in the ship hangar and teleport directly to the station
    3) at any time (except during warp) you can leave the ship via the hangar door, if you have a sleipnir or quad

    To save passengers the 7 ped station-to-planet TP fee, many motherships will back up to the planet's "atmosphere" (the point where you get the message to land on the planet). When the ship has reached the proper place, passengers can fly their quads and sleipnirs out of the hangar door and as soon as they exit the MS, they get the "do you want to land on planet" message.

    So the question is... are your lootables safe if you do this. It is my understanding that the Normandie crew has thoroughly tested the process and come to the conclusion that under normal conditions, a quad cannot be shot down in the time it takes to leave the ship and land on a planet. This agrees with my own experience with the procedure. I believe it is a safe practice under normal conditions.

    However, keep in mind that the following can destroy the "normal conditions" and make atmospheric landing unsafe:

    1) while space is loading up, your ship is vulnerable in lootable PVP, so anything that delays space or planet loading could leave your ship vulnerable:
    - if the pilot does not have 2 peds on him for the landing fee or his space thruster is at empty, he will have to head back into the ship and this could result in delays
    - bad internet connection
    - bad lag (during nightly lag time, for example)
    - landing point server is unavailable/offline/under exceptional load

    2) MS crew trust/reliability issues
    - if the captain does not park the ship in the proper place, you may have trouble with the landing message. It is not as simple as parking "close" to the planet and you can't see exact coordinates via your map
    - if a captain is cooperating with pirates, he could be parking away from the planet border and pirates could be waiting for you to fly out (I'm talking about possibilities here, I'm not at all saying that any of the major transport ships would do this)​

    3) Quad pilot trust/reliability issues (if a fellow passenger is flying you down to planet)
    - quad pilot error, e.g. going afk or clicking on the wrong button (the one that cancels landing) can leave you floating in lootable PVP long enough to be shot down
    - malicious pilot could have a pirate buddy shoot you down when you get outside​


    Maybe the most revealing question is... do I personally use this method when carrying thousands of peds of stackables? The answer is yes. The ship I fly on has a very experienced crew and over the hundred or so times I've done it, I've not experienced any significant problems except the time I forgot to replace my thruster.

    So... assuming I'm flying with my favorite MS crew that I believe are 100% reliable, what are the cases where I would not use this procedure while carrying large amounts of stackables?

    • if the universe is unstable, like those periods we had last week where the entropia went down multiple times (switching servers during those times can be a bad idea even without the PVP aspect)
    • if I know my internet connection is acting up or a family member is downloading a movie or hogging the internet so that the game is lagging excessively
    • if I am flying down in another person's quad who has not yet earned my trust in lootable PVP
    • if I see a known pirate or PVPer leaving the hangar or spawning a ship in the hangar, I will probably play it safe and head to the station
    • if I see more than a dozen quads leaving at the same time as me I will probably wait a minute or two so there is less potential for lag
    • obviously, you don't want to leave the ship if the captain has not indicated that it's safe to leave, or if the ship is taking damage
     
  2. Sakuba

    Sakuba Member

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    I believe that all of this is absolutely correct.

    The time required to allow Passengers to log back in and disembark once "Atmosphericaly Docked", along with the ten(10) to fifteen(15) minutes required to reach the nearby Space Station to allow those who choose not to use this kind of re-entry is too problematic and time consuming.

    I think the chances of PVPers/Pirates stumbling accross a Mothership in this situation is quite slim and it would require a well organized and large group for it to be effective in causing serious problems for Ship,crew and passengers. It has become my experience however, that most people would prefer to air on the side of caution rather than risk the possiblity of any difficulties caused by this "Docking and Disembarkation Proceedure", regardless of it being accidental or planned by unscrupulous and unsavoury persons.

    This along with internet connection, lag, broken thruster, trust and unknown territory issues has, understandably, been enough to make a lot of people untrusting of this option and they choose not to use it.

    When you consider that some Passengers carry stackables that can be worth sebverl thousands of PEDs, is it really worth the risk of saving a mere five(5) PED for re-entry ?

    As for the majority of Players, who do not have huge PEDs to invest in large amounts of stackables, why should they risk what little they have struggled so hard to obtain for the sake of saving the same five(5) PED?
     
  3. Alaina

    Alaina Member

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    Really great post Neil, has hopfully clarified some key points for those contemplating disemarkment via this method.


    I obivously cant comment on how other Motherships operate, but on the Normandie we employ a few other methods to ensure the absolutely safety of the passengers leaving this way.

    There will always be the trained and experienced ToS Normandie Gunner team watching the ever move of those leaving the ship, and for the slightest hint of other ships entering the vacinity.

    If any of the quads/vtols even tried to shoot down a fellow passengers, they can be rest assured that my gunner team would obilterate them before they had the chance.

    As of course we are striaght back to planet, no pirates can come from behind, if any do apear from in front, we have ample time to stop the squardron of departees from leaving until we ensure 100% al clear. If however, someone misses the message and flys out regardless - a trained Mothership pilot can make a very simple manouver to effectivly " catch" the stray vtol/quad back in side in a matter of seconds. Thus ensuring no one is ever left out there stranded. We also adopt this method if someone crashes or has forgetten to downlaod planet, have the 2ped, thruster broke etc.

    As mentioned above, we like to ensure our passengers have choices, so if you would prefer to TP down with the 7 ped tp fee, this is never a problem. We travel to the atmosphere and space station of each of the planets.

    I really liked your informative post Neil, great for debunking and clarifying information from space :)




    Captain Bonnie - ToS Normandie :)
     
  4. Uncle Mo

    Uncle Mo Active Member

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    The motherships I'm aware of that provide this 'service' typically charge 10 PED per planet visited. That's 10 PED plus 2 PED or 12 PED spent.

    If you can get that same warp flight for 5 PED and spend 7 PED on a teleport (with absolutely ZERO risk) this also adds up to 12 PED spent.

    So either way the player is spending 12 PED. Even a subscription player has a hard time overcoming the extra 50 PED they would have to spend on a MS that offers this service, but I admit it's possible with enough visits. I'm talking the hardcore trader types that would use the service every day.

    I agree with most every thing Greenleaf states here, but I think it's misleading to flatly state that passengers are saving 7 PED without disclosing the other fees associated with warp flights. In my example above it's clear that there are no savings and the only thing that's rally happening is that the Mothership owner is taking 5 PED away from Mindark...which I don't necessarily mind but it begs the question: Why would Mindark allow such a thing to happen? Perhaps one day they will simply not allow motherships and privateers to get anywhere near a planet's atmosphere. Who knows what will change with the next set of space rules.
     
  5. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    True, except that when you use a quad, you can carry a passenger down for free, and that reduces the cost. Of course, whether you're carrying stackables (and how much) should impact your decision to accept a ride in a stranger's quad or pay the extra for the TP at the station.

    To everyone, we should keep this thread on the topic of safety and atmospheric entry, especially with stackables... not get into a debate on which mothership service is best.

    Those motherships that don't offer atmosphere entry, along with privateers, make it simpler for passengers... passengers will either take the TP down or fly thru PVP to land on the planet. I want to keep this thread more focused on helping passengers in their decision between atmospheric entry or TP when the two options are available.
     
  6. General Grievous

    General Grievous Member

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    Recently I have had problems when leaving the mothership in a quad, as I get disconnected as soon as I leave the ship (CTD). This does not always happen, but as we all know bugs come and go with each update, I feel it is a risk I dont want to take. If you where disconnected when leaving the ship, you would be floating in your quad until your avatar was logged off, then when reconnecting you would be floating in space until you die. This would give and pirates time to kill you, remembering that it only takes one shot to kill you if you are a floater.

    As for having gunners on board the ship, here's a few points...
    1. Tracking speed of the guns is insufficient to track a good quad pilot
    2. Only a certain number of guns can track a quad at any one time depending on where the quad is in relation to the ship.
    3. There is a limited number of gunner seats that can be filled at anyone time, which is not enough to provide suitable protection.

    In short, a MS is suited to defending against large ships, not small fighters, and I would never put my faith into some random gunner, because it doesn't matter how skilled you are if the tools your using ain't fit for the task.

    These are just the main points, there are other reasons that could also be added to this, but I think I've made my point.

    I would hope that all MS owners would always offer the space station docking, and if someone specifically wanted an atmo entry then allow them to do that (pre-agreed). Of course there is cost implications to this, but when your carrying 2k peds of stuff a 7 ped fee is nothing to guarantee your safety.

    Fly safe everyone ;)
     
  7. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    You've probably done it, but I would repair my installation if this kept happening to me. Also, if you're a regular on a Mothership, I'd recommend seeing if there's an alternate means of getting in contact with the crew. For instance, teamspeak or Skype, so if you crash in space, you can let them know and they'll tell you if the coast is clear for you to log back in. Also, if you log back in within 10 minutes, you can jump back in your quad from space and fly into the mothership hangar before dying. Just a helpful little trick :)

    I believe all the major MS services do offer station docking. If you're asked to board a ship that only offers atmospheric entry, it should send up a red flag that something fishy might be going on.
     
  8. Alaina

    Alaina Member

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    Hi, please bear in mind that you are presuming that the pirates are out there in the first place. Any good captain would never give the all clear to leave If there is a wiff of pirates in the vicinity. Once a pirate is spotted it takes them a good few minutes to get anywhere near the mother ship.
    Yes gunners alone are not enough to provide suitable protection, the mothership must have ample si also.

    I'm afraid it is not the case however that ms guns are no use against quads, I have a very long list of able and otherwise pirates who have been shot down by myself on a mothership gun. Whether they have been alone or in teams.

    Shooting a quad at atmosphere is very easy, you see them coming from a long way away, as they will never come from behind. Bear in mind a good gunner can easily do 400+ dmg.


    However, shooting a pirate is not even half the equation, if you had seen the rest of my post im sure you would have picked up on the very simple yet effective manouver a pilot can do if any danger is spotted.

    If someone disconnects in space, pilot simply reverses into the ship and catches it in hanger. Same happens for those have no thruster, havent downloaded planet etc. We have done this often.

    If however we do have someone who reconnectes while out in space, they can rest assured that no pirate would be allowed to fly right up to the ship, pass freely right past the nose of our gunners without getting shot down.

    Bear in mind the few seconds the persons floats around for, they have the biggest sheild surrounding them, a mothership cannot be shot through ;) but floaters can be reversed over to encompass them ;)

    This is so very true, never trust a random gunner, only those with experience and training.

    So very true, everyone should have both options to disembark how they please :)
     
  9. Alaina

    Alaina Member

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    2 very good tips :)
     
  10. General Grievous

    General Grievous Member

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    Correct, Installation repaired & Cache cleared with no effect at the time. It does seem to have stopped now, but still I would not take risks If I was carrying loot.


    I have heard many stories of arrogance being displayed by some MS captains, not giving passengers a choice etc. So I guess you should stick to what you know.

    As for saftey... wasent the logging off in space a big secret until someone let everyone know? After all, MS travel used to cost an astronomical amount, leaving it as a none option for most people. It was only because of competition that meant the price had to come down. Im sure that if given the chance these prices would rise again.

    So really, if your talking about safety in space then you should consider how much you trust the captain, and this is based on not only their current status, but their past performance too.

    To anyone who chooses to spam or advertise for mothership services, remember this...

    Self praise is no approval. [ unnessacery comment removed ]
     
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  11. Sakuba

    Sakuba Member

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    Another small glitch that can occurr in space was bought to my attention today. It is not the first time it has happened, probably the second or third and this is what has made it stick out in my mind. It is not directly related to "Atmoshperic Docking" but can be affective to those planning on using it.

    We quite opften have Passengers waiting on the Hangar Deck with their quads prepared for early and quick launches into space upon destination arrivals. I have noticed on a couple of occassions now that actually waiting in your quad can glitch. What will happen is the Mothership will go into warp and everything will vibrate as it should and the warp will commence. However, if you are waiting in your quad you will get spat out of the MS and be left behind - your quad will be dumped back into your backpack and you will be left floating in PVP Space. You do not die until after the warp sequence is completed and your screen continues to vibrate as though you are still on the ship.

    It seems you have a protective bubble around you as though you have just logged in and when it disappears you have the normal time of floating in space before you eventually die and go to the nearby Space Station. I see this as just another small problem for someone who is wanting a quick getaway on an atmospheric re-entry and suggest not waiting in your quad to do so.
     
  12. General Grievous

    General Grievous Member

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    Once again, those ever so common bug's rear their heads.

    Perhaps I should re-evaluate the safety aspect of this, before the worst happens! heaven forbid!
     
  13. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    This sounds like a big security problem for motherships. Do you have any more info about the conditions under which this happens? And has a bug report been submitted?
     
  14. Sakuba

    Sakuba Member

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    Sorry I was a bit lax responding to this. I believe this situation may be caused from being in your Quad and hovering on the Hangar Deck prior to entering the Actual Warp.
     
  15. Hodges

    Hodges Member

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    I know this is a kind of old thread, but I do have something to add in response to this and think it should be known.

    I have been spat out two times now by two different motherships. Both times, I hadn't even loaded inside the ship yet. The first time, my internet was having an issue and taking too long to load the inside of the ship. I was escorting it away from planets and jumping in the hangar just before warp. Seeing that it was taking too long to load, I tried to move forward a bit to get away from the door, since I knew I was already inside. Just as it started loading visually, it spat me back out, and I was left behind because I hadn't the time to fly back in. It very well could have been simply because I was in the air and too close to the door when warp was activated, even though I wasn't close enough to activate the exit sequence. From then on, I've tried to enter the ship much earlier and be far away from the door before warp starts, and have had no problems. I'm not sure how close the other people were to the door when it happened to them, but I'm guessing not far from it.

    The second time was when I was entering another ship that was docked at a station. This time, it was much simpler. I entered the ship but before the screen even stopped showing the outside of the ship, it spat me back out. I was able to re-enter without a problem. This time, I wasn't loading slow. It was almost instant.

    I can see how this could be a problem for many people. I don't see it happen often and have not personally seen it happen to others, but it is definitely something to be cautious of, as it does happen.
     

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