1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Gerund's Hunting Experiments

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by mastergerund, Feb 5, 2017.

  1. mastergerund

    mastergerund Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I have been reading various loot theories and am going to a conduct a series of experiments that collect data people can go crazy with.

    Going to start out by establishing baselines:

    S.I. Combat Knife


    First hunt:
    S.I. Combat Knife
    161 Carabok
    Celeste Quarry ([30817, 9651, 109])
    Avg. Cost per kill 4.267 pec
    Eco 2.344 dmg/pec

    Loot is in line with expectations. Eco is lower than I had anticipated; I will do several more baseline hunts to bring the total sample size to ~1000 for this setup (and confirm the eco), but that will be after Gold Rush event.


    S.I. Combat Knife
    0​

    -6.87 PED​
    Total expenses.
    -6.87 PED​
    ...
    Animal Hide
    +15​

    +0.15 PED​
    Animal Muscle Oil
    +17​

    +0.51 PED​
    Animal Oil Residue
    +60​

    +0.60 PED​
    BLP Pack
    +2521​

    +0.25 PED​
    Basic Cloth Extractor
    +1​

    +0.01 PED​
    Blazar Fragment
    +12​

    -0.00 PED​
    Carabok Hide
    +33​

    +0.66 PED​
    Carabok Leg Fur
    +3​

    +0.60 PED​
    Diluted Sweat
    +85​

    +0.85 PED​
    Enhanced Cloth Extractor
    +1​

    +0.01 PED​
    Inferior Cloth Extractor
    +12​

    +0.12 PED​
    Nova Fragment
    +141​

    -0.00 PED​
    Shrapnel
    +20449​

    +2.04 PED​
    Socket I Component
    +1​

    +0.10 PED​
    Weapon Cells
    +4197​

    +0.42 PED​
    Total returns.
    +6.32 PED​
    ...
    Result
    91.99%​

    -0.55 PED​
    Edit: filled in missing information about first hunt, edited commentary slightly in response to cost calculations.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  2. Starkiller

    Starkiller Active Member

    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Good luck with your endeavour :)
     
  3. mastergerund

    mastergerund Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Thanks, Starkiller. I appreciate the well-wishes.

    Gold rush hunts are not part of my actual experiments, but in the event the data is useful, here is the record of my next hunt.

    2nd Hunt:
    Ozpyn
    347 Magurg Breeder 1
    Gold Rush Category I Instance
    41644 damage inflicted.
    120.01 dmg per creature implies 9.1% overkill (versus 110 hp per creature as per entropedia.)
    Kill cost/creature 43.9 pec
    Eco = 2.731 dmg/pec

    Heal points on self, 1294
    Heal costs 0.8%
    Vivo S10 eco 9.585 hp/pec

    (Switched from Universal Ammo to BLP packs at 25 minute mark. Universal ammo consumption of 120.72 ped during first 95 minutes implies 31.77 ped BLP consumption in final 25 minutes, rather than 13.11 ped shown. Extra 18.66 ped BLP should be added to consumption & loot. Actual costs 167.39 v. loot of 161.95 (both increased by extra BLP consumed) mean 96.75% return.)


    BLP Pack
    -131081​

    -13.11 PED​
    Bullseye I (L)
    0​

    -1.38 PED​
    Neurobiotic Booster A1 1mg
    -2​

    -0.02 PED​
    Ozpyn BP S1X1
    0​

    -12.15 PED​
    Universal Ammo
    -1207200​

    -120.72 PED​
    Vivo S10
    0​

    -1.35 PED​
    Total expenses.
    -148.73 PED​
    ...
    Animal Hide
    +894​

    +8.94 PED​
    Animal Muscle Oil
    +1374​

    +41.22 PED​
    Animal Oil Residue
    +235​

    +2.35 PED​
    Arkoin
    +24​

    +0.24 PED​
    Blazar Fragment
    +48​

    -0.00 PED​
    Cat.1 Event Token 1 point
    +17​

    +0.17 PED​
    Cat.1 Event Token 10 Points
    +2​

    +0.02 PED​
    Cat.1 Event Token 5 points
    +1​

    +0.01 PED​
    Nova Fragment
    +276​

    -0.00 PED​
    Scott & Barlow BP-6 (L)
    +1​

    +12.18 PED​
    Shrapnel
    +436716​

    +43.67 PED​
    Socket I Component
    +62​

    +6.20 PED​
    Soft Hide
    +4​

    +0.40 PED​
    Thin Wool
    +19​

    +4.75 PED​
    Tier I Component
    +70​

    +7.00 PED​
    Weapon Cells
    +145407​

    +14.54 PED​
    Wool
    +8​

    +1.60 PED​
    Total returns.
    +143.29 PED​
    ...
    Result
    96.34%​

    -5.44 PED​
    Edit: added heal eco. Does anybody know whether heal points on self from instance stats includes the heal over time effect of Vivo S10? My calculated heal eco is well below the level stated by entropedia, but it would be in line with entropedia numbers if heal over time is not included in instance stats.
     
  4. mastergerund

    mastergerund Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Skipped a few logs, but here is my 10th Gold Rush Instance:

    Ozpyn BP S1X1 w/ Bullseye I (L), no enhancers
    328 Magurg Breeder 1
    Gold Rush Category I Instance
    39251 damage inflicted.
    119.67 dmg per creature implies 8.8% overkill (versus 110 hp per creature as per entropedia.)
    Kill cost/creature 44.49 pec
    Eco = 2.690 dmg/pec

    Heal points on self, 1186
    Heal costs 0.85%
    Vivo S10 eco 9.565 hp/pec

    A little slower because I was watching a movie. This was by far my worst, both on loot return and on points. Overkill was about the same as last time. Last time I had accuracy enhancers, so I think that explains some of the eco difference (since none broke it exaggerated the eco of my previous hunt). I still think that the instance doesn't count the heal over time, so actual healing eco is higher than shown.

    I may do one more GR instance to see if I can get a better normalized score, since this run was so poor. Either way, I will plan on continuing my hunting experiments soon.


    Bullseye I (L)
    0​
    -1.32 PED​
    Neurobiotic Booster A10 1mg
    -1​
    -0.01 PED​
    Ozpyn BP S1X1
    0​
    -11.56 PED​
    Piron PBP-0 (L)
    0​
    -0.06 PED​
    Universal Ammo
    -1317316​
    -131.73 PED​
    Vivo S10
    0​
    -1.24 PED​
    Total expenses.
    -145.92 PED​
    ...
    Animal Hide
    +550​
    +5.50 PED​
    Animal Muscle Oil
    +956​
    +28.68 PED​
    Animal Oil Residue
    +195​
    +1.95 PED​
    Arkoin
    +115​
    +1.15 PED​
    BLP Pack
    +37131​
    +3.71 PED​
    Blazar Fragment
    +27​
    0.00 PED​
    Bullseye II (L)
    +1​
    +7.34 PED​
    Cat.1 Event Token 1 point
    +10​
    +0.10 PED​
    Cat.1 Event Token 10 Points
    +3​
    +0.03 PED​
    Cat.1 Event Token 20 points
    +1​
    +0.01 PED​
    Cat.1 Event Token 5 points
    +8​
    +0.08 PED​
    Fine Hide
    +1​
    +0.25 PED​
    Magurg Male Pincer
    +1​
    +0.20 PED​
    Nova Fragment
    +252​
    +0.00 PED​
    Shrapnel
    +315086​
    +31.50 PED​
    Socket I Component
    +103​
    +10.30 PED​
    Soft Hide
    +6​
    +0.60 PED​
    Thin Wool
    +3​
    +0.75 PED​
    Tier I Component
    +35​
    +3.50 PED​
    Weapon Cells
    +92282​
    +9.22 PED​
    Wool
    +5​
    +1.00 PED​
    Total returns.
    +105.87 PED​
    ...
    Result
    72.55%​
    -40.05 PED​
     
  5. mastergerund

    mastergerund Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Back to establishing baseline for SI Combat Knife:

    31 Monura Female
    22 Monura Male
    46 Carabok
    20 Gallard
    15 Arkadian Hornet

    Arkadia Event Area 2 [16978, 25667, 175]
    Dmg/pec 2.34
    Eco is in line with last baseline test on SI Combat Knife. (Dmg used for calc is total hp of creatures killed, so eco does not compensate for overkill.) As can be seen, I was swunting a bit (51.9% of potential bottles gathered) so sample is small compared to how long it took me. Will continue to do that for the next few tests, since the sweat gained makes up for the TT losses on the hunt, and the defensive skill gain is higher when swunting.


    S.I. Combat Knife
    0​

    -6.69 PED​
    Universal Ammo
    -400​

    -0.04 PED​
    Total expenses.
    -6.73 PED​
    ...
    Advanced Leather Extractor
    +2​

    +0.02 PED​
    Advanced Stone Extractor
    +1​

    +0.01 PED​
    Animal Hide
    +12​

    +0.12 PED​
    Animal Muscle Oil
    +5​

    +0.15 PED​
    Animal Oil Residue
    +72​

    +0.72 PED​
    Arkadian Hornet Hide
    +2​

    +0.04 PED​
    BLP Pack
    +2235​

    +0.22 PED​
    Basic Wood Extractor
    +2​

    +0.02 PED​
    Carabok Hide
    +8​

    +0.16 PED​
    Diluted Sweat
    +42​

    +0.42 PED​
    Gallard Hide
    +11​

    +0.22 PED​
    Monura Female Hide
    +22​

    +0.66 PED​
    Monura Male Hide
    +12​

    +0.36 PED​
    Nova Fragment
    +123​

    +0.00 PED​
    Piron PLP-0 (L)
    +1​

    +0.59 PED​
    Shrapnel
    +16933​

    +1.70 PED​
    Vibrant Sweat
    +819​

    0.00 PED​
    Weapon Cells
    +3532​

    +0.35 PED​
    Total returns.
    +5.76 PED​
    ...
    Result
    85.59%​

    -0.97 PED​
     
  6. mastergerund

    mastergerund Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    SI Combat Knife

    16 Monura Female
    16 Monura Male
    30 Carabok
    16 Gallard
    20 Arkadian Hornet

    Arkadia Event Area 2 [16978, 25667, 175]
    Dmg/pec 2.45

    Better eco than the last couple of baseline tests, but 4% difference could be explained by less overkill. I do have a couple of shots on Arkadian Hornets with my Z12 Barbarella when I couldn't reach with my knife, but not enough to swing the eco as much as we're seeing. Too small a sample to draw any conclusions.

    After finishing out 1000 creatures with the SI Combat Knife and determining average eco for the whole series, I will baseline with some guns with a smaller damage range (PBP-0 series). More shots, less overkill, more precise calculation. Then I will have two separate baselines to work with for the next set of experiments. Depending on how those go, I may need to do a set on creatures with 20-25 hp with the SI Combat Knife to determine actual eco without so much overkill.

    Overall it was a good hunt:


    S.I. Combat Knife
    0​
    -4.59 PED​
    Universal Ammo
    -615​
    -0.06 PED​
    Total expenses.
    -4.65 PED​
    ...
    Animal Hide
    +12​
    +0.12 PED​
    Animal Muscle Oil
    +21​
    +0.63 PED​
    Animal Oil Residue
    +55​
    +0.55 PED​
    Arkadian Hornet Hide
    +5​
    +0.10 PED​
    BLP Pack
    +2068​
    +0.21 PED​
    Basic Wood Extractor
    +2​
    +0.02 PED​
    Blazar Fragment
    +12​
    0.00 PED​
    Carabok Hide
    +8​
    +0.16 PED​
    Carabok Leg Fur
    +5​
    +1.00 PED​
    Diluted Sweat
    +21​
    +0.21 PED​
    Gallard Hide
    +4​
    +0.08 PED​
    Monura Female Hide
    +2​
    +0.06 PED​
    Monura Male Hide
    +2​
    +0.06 PED​
    Nova Fragment
    +93​
    0.00 PED​
    Shrapnel
    +18295​
    +1.82 PED​
    Vibrant Sweat
    +610​
    -0.00 PED​
    Weapon Cells
    +4661​
    +0.46 PED​
    Total returns.
    +5.48 PED​
    ...
    Result
    117.85%​
    +0.83 PED​
     
  7. mastergerund

    mastergerund Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    SI Combat Knife; Z12 Barbarella only as necessary when Hornets were out of reach.

    42 Monura Female
    39 Monura Male
    54 Carabok
    51 Gallard
    22 Arkadian Hornet

    Arkadia Event Area 2 [16978, 25667, 175]
    Dmg/pec 2.47


    S.I. Combat Knife
    0​
    -9.71 PED​
    Universal Ammo
    -9225​
    -0.92 PED​
    Z12 Barbarella
    0​
    -0.06 PED​
    Total expenses.
    -10.69 PED​
    ...
    Advanced Stone Extractor
    +2​
    +0.02 PED​
    Animal Hide
    +18​
    +0.18 PED​
    Animal Muscle Oil
    +17​
    +0.51 PED​
    Animal Oil Residue
    +115​
    +1.15 PED​
    Arkadian Hornet Hide
    +14​
    +0.28 PED​
    BLP Pack
    +3152​
    +0.32 PED​
    Blazar Fragment
    +19​
    0.00 PED​
    Body Fat
    +2​
    +0.16 PED​
    Carabok Hide
    +13​
    +0.26 PED​
    Diluted Sweat
    +10​
    +0.10 PED​
    Gallard Hide
    +67​
    +1.34 PED​
    Hair Gel
    +6​
    +0.78 PED​
    Inferior Cloth Extractor
    +1​
    +0.01 PED​
    Monura Female Hide
    +14​
    +0.42 PED​
    Monura Male Hide
    +5​
    +0.15 PED​
    Nova Fragment
    +190​
    +0.00 PED​
    Piron PBP-0 (L)
    +1​
    +0.46 PED​
    Shrapnel
    +30888​
    +3.08 PED​
    Socket I Component
    +1​
    +0.10 PED​
    Vibrant Sweat
    +76​
    -0.00 PED​
    Weak Cloth Extractor
    +3​
    +0.03 PED​
    Weapon Cells
    +5050​
    +0.51 PED​
    Total returns.
    +9.86 PED​
    ...
    Result
    92.24%​
    -0.83 PED​
     
  8. mastergerund

    mastergerund Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    SI Combat Knife.

    41 Monura Female
    40 Monura Male
    37 Carabok
    47 Gallard
    20 Arkadian Hornet

    Arkadia Event Area 2 [16978, 25667, 175]
    Dmg/pec 2.45


    S.I. Combat Knife
    0​

    -9.71 PED​
    Total expenses.
    -9.71 PED​
    ...
    Animal Hide
    +41​

    +0.41 PED​
    Animal Muscle Oil
    +29​

    +0.87 PED​
    Animal Oil Residue
    +135​

    +1.35 PED​
    Arkadian Hornet Hide
    +2​

    +0.04 PED​
    BLP Pack
    +3480​

    +0.35 PED​
    Blazar Fragment
    +11​

    0.00 PED​
    Carabok Leg Fur
    +1​

    +0.20 PED​
    Corria Timber
    +3​

    +0.60 PED​
    Gallard Hide
    +38​

    +0.76 PED​
    Monura Female Hide
    +9​

    +0.27 PED​
    Nova Fragment
    +141​

    0.00 PED​
    Piron PBR-0 (L)
    +1​

    +1.46 PED​
    Shrapnel
    +26063​

    +2.60 PED​
    Weapon Cells
    +6458​

    +0.64 PED​
    Total returns.
    +9.55 PED​
    ...
    Result
    98.35%​

    -0.16 PED​
     
  9. mastergerund

    mastergerund Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    SI Combat Knife

    46 Monura Female
    36 Monura Male
    34 Carabok
    43 Gallard
    32 Arkadian Hornet

    Arkadia Event Area 2 [16978, 25667, 175]
    Dmg/pec 2.49


    S.I. Combat Knife
    0​
    -9.71 PED​
    Universal Ammo
    -205​
    -0.02 PED​
    Z12 Barbarella
    0​
    -0.01 PED​
    Total expenses.
    -9.74 PED​
    ...
    Advanced Leather Extractor
    +1​
    +0.01 PED​
    Advanced Stone Extractor
    +2​
    +0.02 PED​
    Animal Hide
    +41​
    +0.41 PED​
    Animal Muscle Oil
    +28​
    +0.84 PED​
    Animal Oil Residue
    +96​
    +0.96 PED​
    Arkadian Hornet Hide
    +17​
    +0.34 PED​
    BLP Pack
    +2893​
    +0.29 PED​
    Blazar Fragment
    +86​
    0.00 PED​
    Carabok Hide
    +10​
    +0.20 PED​
    Carabok Leg Fur
    +1​
    +0.20 PED​
    Diluted Sweat
    +13​
    +0.13 PED​
    Gallard Hide
    +13​
    +0.26 PED​
    Monura Female Hide
    +4​
    +0.12 PED​
    Monura Male Hide
    +20​
    +0.60 PED​
    Nova Fragment
    +169​
    +0.00 PED​
    Shrapnel
    +20400​
    +2.05 PED​
    Weapon Cells
    +3907​
    +0.40 PED​
    Total returns.
    +6.83 PED​
    ...
    Result
    70.12%​
    -2.91 PED​
     
  10. mastergerund

    mastergerund Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    That brings my tracked total with SI Combat Knife to 977, which I will consider to be close enough to 1000 to call it a decent baseline.

    176 Monura Female
    153 Monura Male
    362 Carabok
    177 Gallard
    109 Arkadian Hornet

    Total Cost 48.39
    Dmg/pec 2.45

    Total Return 43.8
    TT 90.51%

    For my first experiment, I want to separate dmg done from creature hp. To do this, I will knife each creature once, then sweat while it recovers, then kill it once it's dry. I will continue to calculate dmg/pec using the base hp of creatures killed. Ideally it should decrease to below 2.00 over sample size of 1000 punies, which would represent at least an 18.37% decrease in 'eco' but driven by a corresponding increase in actual damage done.

    If loot multipliers are based on actual damage or decay, hunt results should fall within normal variance (85-95%). If loot multipliers are actually based on creature hp, results would be expected to fall to below 78%. Any outcome between 78% and 85% would be considered inconclusive and I will expand the sample size for baseline and this experiment to ~2000 punies.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Ardorj

    Ardorj Active Member Pro Users

    Messages:
    568
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    43
    It's an interesting experiment you're doing (if I understand it correctly).
    However, did you also consider the increased defense-cost while you're sweating it for the mob to regain health?

    I've done my small share of experimenting, but I found that they are all inconclusive. The loot swings from one sample to another is just too large. You might also, from my own experience, get a result well between 85-95%, yet with a standard deviation of 10-15%.

    Good luck with the punies, and remember that Entropia is about having fun!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Haruto Rat

    Haruto Rat Active Member

    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    72
    Trophy Points:
    28
    If you want to know why this might not be a good idea, do it in a team of two:
    • A does some damage to the mob;
    • A & B sweat it until it fully recovers;
    • B kills it;
    • How much loot does A get?
    (in my experience, A doesn't get anything. Been some time since the last experiment though, so things may have changed)
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  13. mastergerund

    mastergerund Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Since I'm sweating punies, I don't use armor or fap, and heal up naturally when necessary.

    This is an interesting point, and highlights a potential issue with the test design. If the system is "losing track" of initial damage once creature heals to full, as the example illustrates, then the test might not conclusively separate damage done from the health of the creature. It would expect a lower rate of return even if loot multiplier is driven by a single-variable (damage) model.

    A few hundred creatures into the experiment, I am seeing lower returns, but the sample isn't large enough for it to be outside of normal variance yet.

    These wide standard deviations are why I'm trying to keep a sample size around 1000 for control group and test group. From what I've read, it looks like the sample size to narrow the return into a 2-3% band for any particular setup is about 5000 loot events. I think that indicates 1000 loot events would be enough to narrow the expected band to 10-15% (so a result more than 15% outside of expected values can be considered conclusive, more than 10% indicative, and less than 10% inconclusive).

    I could perform larger tests, but when I'm testing a setup or technique that is indicative of lower return after the first 1000 loot events, larger tests have significantly greater costs.
     

Share This Page