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Future planned cargo missions and why i believe they will be a bust.

Discussion in 'PvP' started by robotech master, Apr 17, 2015.

  1. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    I agree, both of sinkillerj's posts were completely unnecessary.



    MA stated that even if the mission fails the person will get the AH item/s. MA has heavily implied that missions are created by the players aka until someone wants something shipped their will be no missions. MA wouldn't have gone through the trouble saying that if mission fails it is meaningless to the player asking for the AH item. They would simply state that the fee pool is from the AH fee but the missions are independent of the AH item. While its true they could then go on to ignore the player driven mechanics it seems unlikely. Simply put its easy to figure out that they will be tied together in some fashion aka cargo mission will be spawned when a player creates them... and then they will fall under a time limit as such. It seems unlikely that the system will just randomly generate missions but its possible. Further we can even deduct that missions could be setup in a system where the faster you drop off the soon the player gets the items. Thus the mission fails in 6 hours but if you drop off in an hour then the players gets the item in an hour. This could be used as a sliding scale for reward(aka fast finish/more ped). However even that they will likely set a base reward. The sliding scale probably wouldn't be added because it causes the chance for the loot pool to empty or for mission to have below costs returns. Also requires them to have a TT count down on the cargo box since the cargo box is the same TT as mission reward.


    I agree hence why I believe they will used fixed rewards... your idea only vastly over complicates the matter... which is why its highly unlikely. Set rewards make managing the system vastly easier then random rewards. Also makes it much more realistic in the sense of doing a true cargo mission.
     
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  2. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    The way I have read the info from MA is that the AH transport fees drive the size of the mission reward pool. That's all. So yes mission success or failure has no bearing on actual delivery of something I have bought. Let's keep in mind you can pay for instant delivery and that ped goes to pay for missions but there is no mission that could be done that delivers cargo instantly. So really it doesn't make sense to tightly couple the missions and the deliveries.

    There have been some months of auction transport fees to build a reward pool.

    I'm not arguing for random rewards. I'm arguing that there is no need for the individual rewards to be effectively the same value as the cost of an individual auction transport fee.

    You assume the cargo box has a TT value. There's no basis for this assumption. A cargo box with TT value would need to be soul bound to prevent it being TTd instead of transported. And if it's soul bound, pirates cant take it from you. I think it is you who is over-complicating things.

    I don't know how MA will choose to implement but its not such a difficult task to put a mission broker on the space stations that offers a range of missions with some constraints included based on ship capacity and some profession level. And they have previously built time limits in to missions. Players could then choose from the list based on the constraints. Existing broker functionality could be leveraged to limit the amount of any one type of mission available at a time. None of this is complicated.

    Regards,
    KikkiJikki
     
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  3. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    Yes they have fee but as I stated in the first post the most likely the fee to have a player run a mission will not be 6 ped. It could be as low as 2.01 PED. The rest of the reward made up for from the fee pool. So the reward can still be fixed.



    Thats not completely correct. First lets start why I assume the cargo box will have TT and that the TT will be the same as the reward... I assume that because MA stated as much in the notes...

    "Note that the cargo boxes will correspond to the value of the transport mission reward" Now its true that you could argue that the TT of the cargo box will not match the TT of the reward. But that seems a bit of a stretch. No matter what you assume though, cargo boxes will have a TT. The question is will that TT match the reward and I think MA is pretty clear yes it will. I also brought up TTing the cargo boxes in another post... and went into detail about it. You will likely be able to TT cargo boxes I think its safe to assume that. That said I think like many items that you can TT but get 0 ped back for them will be the way they go with cargo boxes.

    As I posted this is really the big question will you be able to accept/drop mission strictly in space. It is the unknown cost.

    If MA will let players choose the missions they want, I would expect a more AH style setup. If however MA decides to go the "you queue and you get the next mission" route then yeah a mission broker seems more likely.

    But as stated both of these I have mapped out in past posts.
     
  4. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Hi. I now see where u are coming from re TT values but I think by only quoting part of that sentence from MA you are altering the context.
    "Note that the cargo boxes will correspond to the value of the transport mission reward rather than the actual items traded via auction sales. In this way piracy of cargo boxes will not negatively impact interplanetary trade."

    The intent of their statement is to make it clear that purchased (and AH transported) items are not placed at risk. To me it is not clear that they are saying the boxes will have a TT value. Does "correspond to the value of" translate to "have a TT value equal to"? I'm not convinced that it does.
     
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  5. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    It true you can read it like that but ask yousrelf this... why?

    What does it matter if a pirate or person knows the TT values of the items in transport?
    If you can't TT the cargo box for ped whats the TT matter?
    The only possible reason the TT could matter would be to someone tracking some kind of shipments. If someones tracking shipments then whats the goal of that tracking? Sure one can argue evil master plan to corner the trading market. However even if your arguing that, just straight TT value on cargo is a little rough to do trading based off of.

    The only real reason I can think of that hiding the TT value would matter for is matching a shipment to a person... aka so and so say in chat just bought X gun from ark and will have player mission up. However what can a person do with this info.

    If we assume that a item will be dropped off as soon as the mission is done or failed. Further that we assume that you have say 6+ hours to finish the mission we can kind of see an idea. A person could take the mission and then extort the buyer saying that I'll finish this mission faster if you pay me an extra ped. Otherwise I'll simply wait the full 6 hours before finishing. Pirates could take this action as well after they steal a cargo box. Nothing other then that seems to come to mind for the use of that info.

    At the same time a simple thing comes to mind that MA will program the finish mission reward to match the TT on cargo box so that way they can simply adjust the TT of the cargo box to match the new set reward and it doesn't effect any missions currently active. If the missions are as long as six hours MA may patch and change the rewards. If you have an active mission your rewards would change as well(most likely). If however the reward is tied directly to the TT of the cargo box all new mission will spawn new cargo boxed at the new reward level thus leaving old missions unaffected by any changes.

    That's only the stuff I can think of at the moment its possible other reasons which someone else may see.
     
  6. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Firstly MA hasn't said there will be TT value for the cargo boxes.
    Secondly theres no need for there to be a TT value equal to the mission reward
    Thirdly having the TT value complicates the situation adding factors MA needs to adjust for. Simpler just to not have the TT value
    Fourthly, you are once again talking about time to complete mission affecting delivery of a bought item. There is no link. Thats clear from the ability to buy something and have it instantaneously delivered.

    You talk about preventing the cargo box from being TTd. But if you can't TT an item and its not repairable then the TT value is meaningless. So why have one at all?

    I don't know if a cargo box will have TT value. Perhaps it will. Only MA know right now. But there is no reason to assume it is the case.

    Regards,
    KikkiJikki
     
  7. krazykat

    krazykat Active Member

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    you are constantly and mistakenly thinking that the cargo mission boxes have a direct relationship to the AH delivery system of goods which MA have made quite clear that they will not. They have made it quite clear that the AH delivery fees simply go into a pool from which the mission rewards will be drawn and that there is no direct link between missions an AH items being delivered.

    In that sense, the cargo boxes will not have any TT value in themself, there will only be a reward value when it is delivered to the appropriate NPC. Several ppl have tried to explain this to you already without any apparent success so I don't expect that this contribution will make any difference.
     
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  8. Jod

    Jod Well-Known Member

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    If the TT value of the box is equal to the reward then why even bother delivering it?
    Take the mission and go straight to the TT terminal and cash it in.
    No need to even look at a ship that way.
     
  9. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    somewhat true but once again heavily implied though see later in post. We can look at some other meanings for the phase. After I posted I thought of another meaning to this phase. MA could mean that it has diffferent size crates for example MA could have a crate(we'll call it crate A) that fits in things like quads/slephs, they could have crate B that fits in pathfindes, and crate C for motherships.

    If we assume a system like this then we must ask... can pathfinders hold crate A and B or only B further can motherships hold crate A, B, C or only crate C.

    If this is the system that MA will add going to be alot of pissed off pirates. It will also make killing pathfinders/motherships pointless just for the cargo box. Why? The vast majority of pirates pirate from quads. If a quad can only pick up crate A then if pirate quads kill say a pathfinder and it drops crate B they are boned. Effectively this system would mean only pirates that own pathfinders or motherships can pirate other pathfinders or motherships at least for cargo boxes anyway. So It seems unlikely... but extremely hilarious if put in place.

    So maybe a slightly different system. Instead of having say crate A,B,C we only have Crate A. A quad/sleph can carry 1 crate A where a pathfinder maybe able to carry 2 or 3 and mothership maybe 3 or more. Then quads could of course carry crate A.... however this like the first system has an interesting problem...

    In both systems the cargo can either be carried or we will not have enough space to carry it. Lets say that a single quad kills a pathfinder on a mission and that pathfinder is either carrying crate B or 2 of crate A. The question is what happens to crate B or the 2nd crate A... do they simply get destroyed? Under the current game mechanics the answer would be yes. Currently you can not pickup anything in space. Further by the simple act of killing you currently loot. So these systems present a problem of what happens with the cargo box?

    We can look at this problem in a couple different ways.

    A simple fix would to be any quad/sleph/etc that attacked the ship gets a cargo boxed based dmg so if 20 quads attack and the ship is only carrying 3 crates of A then the tops 3 dmg dealers get the crates... or hey could be random either way any person that attacked the ship the moment it is destroyed the cargo boxes are looted. However this still means if in system one if quads attack a pathfinder/mothership they can't loot crate B/C and in system 2 if a single quad attacks and their are many crate As then only one crate A is looted. So this seems to push away from this idea. Though once again if the idea is to basically bone pirate these systems will bring the boning to them in the most hilarious possible.


    Second we can say O SHIT MA is taking the first steps toward space mining. MA would be completely changing space because cargo boxes can now be a spawned object in space... aka you destroy a ship and suddenly a cargo box appears and becomes its own object in space you can now interact with. You can then "operate" said cargo box to load it into your quad/etc. This of course would pave the way for space mining as one could place asteroids or other things that can be mined. That being just the start.

    Which could be supported by this part of MA's statement "It will also make for a much more exciting and engaging gameplay experience in space and pave the way for further development of space systems including combat, hunting, transport and resource gathering."

    Truthfully I'm not seeing that happening, possible but highly unlikely. If it does happen then it will be a huge step forward for space.


    also true however then we get to point three.

    This is wholly wrong. First its a matter of how they decide to program it. Second ALL ITEMS IN GAME HAVE A TT VALUE. Some items can't be TTed for their value but ALL ITEMS HAVE TT VALUE. So its completely illogically to believe that cargo boxes will not have a TT value.
    This assumes that transport missions are completely devoid of being connected to the AH. MA has already stated they will be connected so you are wrong on this. I have put forth the possibly that if a player finishes the mission earlier then the required time the item will be dropped to the person its supposed to be transported to faster... along will more ped for the person doing the mission... I THEN SAID I DOUBT SUCH A SYSTEM WILL BE IN PLACE BECAUSE I BELIEVE THEY WILL USED A FIXED REWARD SYSTEM. It may still end up if you finish the mission faster that the item will be given to the person faster but once again I highly doubt the reward will change.... rewards will be "fixed" unless MA decided to change them. I further went on to talk about your argument of why hide the TT and explained and asked questions and then explained again why the TT of the cargo box will be the same as the TT for the mission reward. Aka explaining your views and why they were WRONG. Please do not confuse my positions with your positions.


    Note that MA clearly states you will be transporting actual items via auctions sales. These items will be in your cargo box which will have the value of the reward for the mission NOT the value of the items being transported. Its clear that you will indeed be transporting items in your cargo box that come via auction sales. Aka AH sales and the request for transport will be directly linked to transport missions. This is not debatable unless your arguing that MA will decide last minute against such a system... which is possible since it may not work the way they want it to. However its not up for debate that under the current MA statement that they will be directly connected. The only real debate is what exactly is the link and how tight will it be. I list in my first post how I think the link will function as well as how I think the link won't function.




    Besides the fact that a large amount of mission items can't be TT, weapons such as those on rock which have TT but you can only TT them for 0 pec no matter the TT and see point 3 above ALL ITEMS IN GAME MUST HAVE A TT VALUE even if its .00001 PED.



    see above respond to kikki MA has stated in its press release they will.



    Please read the thread before posting this was already dealt with.



    You seem very very confused about whats being talked about.

    First all items in game must have a TT value so your wrong there. Second we can argue that we won't know the TT value of the cargo boxes until the release... Which is fine I believe the TT value will be tied to the mission reward because that is how MA states in the press release what it will be... as I read it. Others are reading it(wrongly) to mean something else.

    I have tried to explain why MA has stated quite clearly that the TT value of the cargo box will be the same as the mission reward... without any apparent success so I don't expect that this contribution will make any difference.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
  10. Jod

    Jod Well-Known Member

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    I give up.

    No point spending the brain power on a brickwall over something we know nothing about.
     
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  11. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    This is getting a bit exasperating. If you think MA has said that the cargo boxes will contain the purchased items then you are misreading their statements. It's simply incorrect.

    If you think MA has stated that a cargo box will have the TT value equal to the reward value then you are misreading their statements. It's simply incorrect.

    The only link, the only link MA have established between the missions and the auction house is the funding of the mission reward pool.

    I think you have some interesting ideas but some of your premises are wrong and if you can't see that by now then there is little I can say to shift your view.

    Regards,
    KikkiJikki
     
  12. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    You and krazykat seem to both suffer from the same fallacy of logic and are reading what you want to read vs what MA has stated.


    If this statement
    had been made in an off the cuff forum post by a dev you'd have some room to argue. However it is NOT an off the cuff remark... it is a carefully checked dev notes press release.


    I read the statement above as is, you read the statement above as the following.
    If MA wanted to say that THEY WOULD HAVE SAID THAT.
     
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  13. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Dude, nowhere in that statement do they say there is any link between the missions and the auction transport other than the funding relationship. Mission rewards are funded by the transport fee pool. That's it. You are reading more into the statement than is actually there.

    I don't understand why you are having such difficulty with this and I don't really care. But when your starting position is incorrect, all the logic in the world won't get you to a useful conclusion.

    Regards,
    KikkiJikki
     
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  14. krazykat

    krazykat Active Member

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    Bottom line is this is all just pointless speculation so I'm done here.
     
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  15. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    Hence why you seem to be flopping around all over the place....
     
  16. sinkillerj

    sinkillerj Active Member

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    Do you want a logical debate? Really? Because you dont seam to understand the ethics of a friendly debate. Instead you use this topic as a place to attack anyone with a differing opinion to your own.
     
  17. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    lol I like this... the creationist crawls out of his hole to sling some mud.

    Science and logic have nothing to do with being friend or nice or anything like that... those are what we call logical fallacies.

    2nd One can not debate if there is nothing to debate... IE kikki through a throwing her arms and and screaming NO repeatedly doesn't leave much to counter. I have pointed out a number of point in her arguments that are unequivocal wrong. She has had no respond or then screaming NO. She gives not logic or reasoning behind said scream of NO... not much I can do that this point other then play along and see if at some point she will do more then scream no.

    At the same time you entered this thread with only one purpose to sling mud and insult me.... I would also added that as far as I read this thread kikki had no problem with your mud slinging only had a problem when I put you in your place... Now run along.
     
  18. sinkillerj

    sinkillerj Active Member

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    So, the one line that this entire topic is based on?

    Look dude you need some help, you can call me a creationist all day, but that's not true, nor does it have anything to do with the shipping of packages in a bloody game. I didn't come here to sling mud, but I'm sure as hell not gonna take any shit when I see you attacking much older members of this community who I know and care about. We have already lost community members to drama, and I'd like to avoid loosing more, so for fucks sake give it a rest till more is known.
     
  19. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    OK that's enough. I refuse to make this personal. You are welcome to your opinions and I have no stake in this issue as I am not really that interested in space or pvp. It's just something I travel through.

    Goodbye,
    KikkiJikki
     
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  20. robotech master

    robotech master Member

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    I find it funny that a person causing drama and has only entered into to this thread with one purpose(to cause drama) whining that I should stop causing drama laughable. Please please entertain me more.


    As to the line yeah their is nothing to debate... kikki has laid out no reasons why shes believes the things shes believes, she has not countered a single argument I have made(other thing screaming NO) all but admitting I am correct. She has been proven wrong on many of her points which she refuses to even acknowledge.

    The debate has ended because one can not debate someone that is proven wrong simply screams NO.
     
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