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Bradley Killer Kell's 'Why the heck not' Crafting Log.

Discussion in 'Crafting' started by Bradley Killer Kell, May 23, 2015.

  1. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    I'm fairly low on the Crafting Scale, so I'm going to list my Skills in Construction first. This way other 'would be' Crafters can compare their current skills to mine. (Also, I'm going to take 180 PED to Space, and start Repairing to hit that 10 Profession and get BPC!)

    Armor Technology - Newbie - 1
    Attachments Technology - Newbie - 1
    BLP Weaponry Technology - Newbie - 4
    Carpentry - Newbie - 6
    Explosive Projectile Weaponry - Newbie - 4
    Gauss Weaponry Technology - Newbie - 1
    Laser Weaponry Technology - Qualified - 1016 (Hmm, maybe I should Craft THIS stuff?)

    Machinery - Newbie - 1
    Manufacture Armor - Newbie - 2
    Manufacture Attachments - Newbie - 1
    Manufacture Electronic Equipment - Poor - 27
    Manufacture Enhancers - Newbie - 1
    Manufacture Mechanical Equipment - Green - 163
    Manufacture Metal Equipment - Inept - 15

    Manufacture Tools - Newbie - 1
    Manufacture Vehicle - Newbie - 1
    Manufacture Weapons - Newbie - 1
    Particle Beamer Technology - Newbie - 1 (Beamer isn't a word now, but it is in the FUTURE!)
    Plasma Weaponry Technology - Newbie - 1
    Spacecraft Engineering - Newbie - 1
    Spacecraft Weaponry - Newbie - 1

    Texture Engineering - Poor - 33
    Tier Upgrading - Newbie - 1
    Tools Technology - Newbie - 2 (Explains the ONE F-101 in 18 tries.)
    Vehicle Repairing - Newbie - 1
    Vehicle Technology - Newbie - 1
    Weapon Technology - Newbie - 1
    Wood Carving - Newbie - 1

    Wood Processing - Newbie - 1

    Now I will also add my INT, and some other Science Skills that I see move up when I Craft, for comparison.

    Intelligence - 18

    Computer - Weak - 63
    Electronics - Inept - 13
    Engineering - Green - 223
    Mechanics - Mediocre - 74

    1. If there are other Skills you feel should be up here that I have missed, feel free to let me know. It just means I simply have came across them improving during Crafting yet.

    2. Man, looking at all those 1's is sad.

    3. I won't be doing Heavy PED Runs, as I really shouldn't be Crafting at all until I hit Space and work that Repair. But hey, why not? :p
     
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  2. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Okay guys, first run! Since it's only 0.02 per Click and I have no MU% to fight about, and it's 12:24 at night so no one to bring me Mats... we're doing our favorite! Explosive Projectiles I, my 2nd Best BP in terms of SR!

    1.00 PED and and 100 Nanocubes later, and we get 50 Attempts!

    I'm rocking one sexy 100.00 QR/CD, and my Skills help it get to an 81.8% SR (Basic Filters is only 84.0 QR, but 90.0% SR, which makes me ASSUME that Skills matter more than QR, but it ALL matters). Also of note, my Explosive Projectiles II BP (a Level 3 BP, compared to EP I being a Level 1 BP) has 100% QR, but only 35% SR... so don't bit off more than you can chew!!!! Level 2 takes more Skill than Level 1, Level 3 takes more than Level 2!!!! And on and on.

    Now, for the actual Run!

    Since the only Condition that Explosive Ammo can come out in is 100%, I'm going for Quantity... we want a lot of Singles and Doubles. Going high Condition would make my Hits BIGGER, but I'd miss a lot more. For Baseball Fans think about the difference in Tony Gwynn and Cecil Fielder.

    And... click to 50... CONSTRUCT!

    Some words while it clicks and clicks and clicks away. One of the things I hope for in this is to get Welding Wire BPs. These can make or break a Low Cost/Low Level Craft Run, especially if you can dodge the AH and deal direct with somebody that Crafts Welding Wire for Repairs (like in Space, where I need to get if I'm going to seriously Craft). Even one that drops at 0.02 can STILL bring you some extra pocket chance, and you might get a decent one.

    Also, at the early levels it's less about Return and more about Skill Gain (which is again why you get to Space and start Repairing). Skills ALSO have a PED Value, but my Metrics aren't good enough to calculate all that jive, but you can always use it to reassure yourself that your loss wasn't as big as the Math says (as long as you DID gain Skills). QR has Value as well, so if your BP isn't 100, each tick up helps to fight off Losses. These are Long Term, they won't help your PED Card now, but rest assure this DOES have value.

    And.. 50 Clicks goes by fast.

    Statistics
    Total # Attempts: 50
    Success Percentage: 18.0% (I'm usually between 18% and 26%, so this was a bad streak on a short run.)

    Item Count
    2014 Explosive Projectiles (0.20 PED)
    16 Nanocube (0.16 PED)
    2 Metal Residue (0.02)

    Total 0.38.

    0.62 Loss, 38% Return (REALLY bad, even worse than my Averages.)

    Aha, but I said there were OTHER Gains right! Oh wait... QR already at 100. So, no QR pluses. Hmm, let's check Skills.

    I gained 2 Skills, both in Manufacture Mechanical Equipment! WOOT! Some I'm 2 better at that now.

    Sadly the 2 MME wasn't enough to improve Success Rate, so the BP stays at 100.0 QR/CD and 81.8% SR.

    Now, I DO have 16 Nano Cubes valuing 0.16 PED... I COULD do 8 more attempts. Hey, the next one COULD be a HOF, right? And I've been missing, so it's got to turn around sometime, right?

    Wrong. A Run is a Run is a Run. If you do 50, do 50. 100, 100 then stop. 500, 1,000 or 5,000 (never a-freaking-gain) do your Run then STOP. Don't toss the extra back in, because the odds are on a VERY Short Run you won't net the TT Value of the goods you put back in. Don't believe me?

    Fine.

    8 Attempts.

    0.16 PED

    Statistics

    Total Attempts 8
    Success Percentage 25% (better, at least... but wait)

    Item Count
    419 Explosive Projectiles 0.04
    1 Nanocube 0.01
    1 Metal residue 0.01

    Total Ped Earned 0.06

    0.10 Loss, 62.5% Return.

    Now, the 2nd one looks nicer than the first one, right? But we have a problem... because while these were 'free' Nanocube we could have recovered PED with, they hurt our OVERALL.

    Final Results on 58 Attempts.

    11 Success 18.97% Success (yes, we raised our Overall Success by 00.97%, almost a Full Point, but look at Total)

    2433 Explosive Projectiles 00.24
    1 Nano Cube 0.01
    3 Metal Residue 0.03

    0.28 (remember, we HAD 0.38, so DESPITE improving our Success Rate by almost a full point, we LOST a full 00.10 PED in the process.

    1.00 Invested, 0.28 Returned... 0.72 in Losses.

    We DID get 2 more Skill, +1 in Mechanics, +1 in Manufacture Mechanical Equipment. Not enough.

    Explosive Projectile I BP QR/CD 100.0, SR 81.8%.

    Hope some new guys can see the Value of Skills, and realize 'chasing' is a BAD idea economically over time (and will throw a wrench in your Recording if you are serious about Tracking your Crafting).

    Note: Despite showing on the System Chat as 3 Manufacture Mechanical Equipment gains and 1 Mechanic gain, my Skills only updated +2 to the MME, now sitting at 165 from 163. Hoping this +1 adds tomorrow or at reset for the actual 166 it should now be at.
     
  3. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    A Note on Explosive Projectiles:

    The great thing about this BP is that the Materials require 0% MU, and are as easy to get as operating the Trade Terminal.

    Add to that the fact that Explosive Projectiles and Metal Residue both have (small) MU%, and it makes this BP very attractive (not to mention all the Globals you see on your screen that hype you up about this BP).

    Another bonus is that you can get more attempts (if that's what you want) since most Near Success give a Nanocube back...now I've shown WHY this is a bad idea but maybe you a just Skill Grinding so more clicks is more important than the PED aspect, or maybe you are Kenny Rodgers humming 'The Gambler' all the way to Broke chasing that HoF or Global.

    One Draw-Back of this BP is that a Near Success is only going to bring you a 50% Return. 1 Nanocube. 1 Metal Residue. That's it, one or the other. So unlike Higher Cost BPs where a Near Success might return 75% or 90% (or 1%, works both ways with those) here you aren't going to be saved by a run of 'Good Near Success'. Of course, you won't be killed by a run of 'Bad Near Success'.

    Okay guys with much greater experience than myself, what did I miss?
     
  4. Lizzy

    Lizzy Deactivated User

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    What you missed? Your run was waaay too small. 50 Clicks is not good enough to break even. For most BP's you want to do 1k or more clicks.
     
  5. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    I usually do bigger runs, but since I'm taking a Crafting Break until I hit the Ship to Skill, I figured I'd toss a PED in to show some New Crafters what 'Early Attempts' might look like.

    Most people stumbling in to Crafting won't start with a 1K Run of Clicks.

    But you are absolutely right to cite the Sample Size is to small to use as any kind of indicator of return, and as I mentioned this is actually a Below Average run for me, as I usually (on 100, 500, 1,000 and 5,000 Runs) have hit in the 22% to 26% Range.
     
  6. harmony

    harmony Active Member Pro Users

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    Nono what you really missed is that you shouldn't craft that blueprint like that.
     
  7. Lizzy

    Lizzy Deactivated User

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    Agreed, new players that want to craft are better off skilling their repair skills (in space) first.

    Also, I tell most people, crafting is a big black hole for your ped to sink in.
     
  8. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Can you elaborate so that New (or Hopeful) Crafters can understand what you mean? It's one thing to say you shouldn't, another thing to explain why.

    Would love to be able to help educate, and your response to this would do so. Many thanks!
     
  9. Lightz

    Lightz Active Member

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    Explosive projectiles and residue have little to no MU, so crafting them in the long run will almost always result in a 90% TT return with no MU to help you recover those lost peds. Yes, you may gain skills, but for the same amount of ped spent, you can gain more skills through repair skilling. If you're adamant on crafting EPs for skilling though, you should at least do it on Monria, where the daily crafting mission gives you 0.75ped of engineering for 500 successful crafts.
     
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  10. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Absolutely.

    I make reference on more than one occasion that I'm going to Space to skill Repair to get Blue Print Comprehension, and my Professional Levels in some of these areas to 10 (or very close).

    I, like many, didn't THINK they could afford 100-200 PED to hop on a ship and repair for a few days to level. Of course, looking back at the PED spent over time, I've wasted WAY more than that... THOUSANDS of PEDs drained to simply get Basic Filters to the QR of 84 that it sits at now from a QR of 1.

    So this can not be over-stated enough... before you consider really Crafting, talk to these Space Captains and get on a Ship to Repair. It will save you THOUSANDS if not HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS in the long run.

    It seems like forever to get 100-200 PED, especially for Non-Depositors, but just play Eco and Smart, and every time you gain stash some in your Storage (you can Extract from PED Card and Move to Storage) and let that build up. If you deposit, but only small amounts Weekly/Monthly, take a bit of that each time and stash it.

    Saving for that approximate 200.00 PED to go Repair and Skill is going to be well worth it in the long run.

    However, I would debate the last part... as there are many Crafters (obviously not at my Skill Levels) that are SUCCESSFUL and PROFITABLE Crafters. Everything in the Game is designed to return 90% if you 'play it right', the difference is in having the Proper Skill for what you are attempting so you can hit that Range, and then making the most of your MU%, along with understanding WHAT you are doing (like not having the right Weapon for the Mob, or over-lapping to much when Mining).
     
  11. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Now THIS is some awesome information!

    Obviously, I'd still strongly suggest you hop on a Ship first, like I'm arranging to do, but the point on the Crafting Daily in Monria is pure gold for those that didn't know. In one way, you were planning on doing 500 (successful) Crafts to Skill ANYWAYS, so it's like 0.75 PED of FREE Engineering a Day. That's bound to add up.

    While absolutely true that the MU% on EP will not save you, the benefit is less Cost due to 0% MU on the Material (which I stated, but I know it's a huge wall of Texts in those Posts). So it does help make things less risky, but you are right to suggest way less Rewarding as well.
     
  12. harmony

    harmony Active Member Pro Users

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    Well you already touched on it yourself.

    Let's assume crafting something worth 1 ped, a near succes can be anything from 20-90% of tt input (for example).
    Now you are crafting something worth 2 pec, and only stuff you can back as a near succes has a tt value of 1 pec.

    Do you think that:

    A. The crafting system is smart enough to give stable returns in the long run, and is adjusted for crafting really low tt blueprints.

    B. The crafting system looks at the supposedly 20% tt return, and rounds it down to 0 pec return and thus a fail. (the choises for the system here are 0% or 50%, nothing or 1 pec).

    I strongly believe in option B, which is why i would advice to craft this blueprint on full condition.
     
  13. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Thank you for the response!

    The old Quantity vs. Quality Debate. And with this BP I think you make an EXCELLENT point, even as it is contrary to the general rule of thumb.

    For starters (not to you, as you already know, but to those that are new) it is GENERALLY considered that your Items that don't have a Range of TT get Quantity (like a Basic Filter... it only has one possible price, 0.01) while things that have a Range of TT Value get Quality (and Residue, but that's another matter) so that you get more TT Value into the item (like a Weapon with a Full TT of 8.00, when you Craft it can be anywhere from 0.01 to 8.00 in TT Value).

    But for some outstanding reasons that Harmony has pointed out, it would make MORE SENSE to use Condition (Far Right, the 'Quality' aspect) with Explosive Projectiles, because we are working at such a small PED amount (0.02 per Click) that the System can't give us a 'Better Near Success'... so go for the Full Condition/Quality and hope to get a lot more Production out of the Clicks that Hit (that Cecil Fielder low BA but High Home Run potential, over Tony Gwynn hitting singles that don't help much).

    Thanks for your time in elaborating, I'm sure many people (myself included) will benefit from your point!
     
  14. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    I'm "Aboard Ship" now, Repairing. I'll post the Stats on Skill Gains once done.

    First Round of Repairs, 2500 Attempts (2500 Wire). The Tool and Wire were 12.00 after MU, so for 'mats' they were pretty cheap overall. We will see what this Run adds to my Skills up top. :D
     
  15. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    First run of 2,500 Repair Attempts is almost in the book. I've got under 150 Attempts left so figured I'd get a head start on the Post.

    So my Cost was below MU%, which is awesome. MU% would have the Repairer and the 20K Wire I started with at about 14 PED, of which I only paid 12 PED to get started. Of course, me Repairing benefits them, so a discount is not completely unusual.

    I would have to say the MOST unexpected thing to happen while on this initial run was a certain Profession Level Increase that I just didn't see coming... Drilling, from the Mining Tree. So it is interesting to note that, while not a huge impact (you don't get much growth in Drilling, I was just close to leveling when I started) if you wanted to Craft AND Mine it might be best to Level Repair in Space and get what ever Free Drilling you can before you place your first shot into the Ground.

    I will say that Repairing, especially if alone or not chatting in Team, is a very eye-bleeding experience of boredom and mind numbing nothingness, as the Auto-Use Tool does everything for you. However, good chats and/or good music pass the time well, as does writing on Forums (hehe) and getting other types of work (In Game or IRL) done, like balancing my Sales Inventory. Of course you could also AFK Level this and go ride a bike or mow the lawn.

    While Blue Print Comprehension (the Hidden Skill we are trying to get through all this work) doesn't level Tailoring, it does seem that Repairing will slowly but surely level ALL your Construction Skills over time, and even some Non-Construction Skills/Professions.

    Okay, 2500 Attempts and 20K Welding Wire later, and the Vehicle RK-5 (L) is at 4.32/7.00 PED.

    So what have I gained? Since another wall of Stats will be mind burning, head to the next post for the results!
     
  16. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Vehicle Repairing - Newbie - 1 +384 (385)
    Vehicle Technology - Newbie - 1 +178 (179)

    Intelligence - 18 +5 (23)

    Electronics - Inept - 13 +107 (120)
    Engineering - Green - 223 +94 (317)
    Mechanics - Mediocre - 74 +93 (167)

    Now what is so interesting about this is that while I only have 6 Skills that improved (1) they improved at a generally outstanding rate and (2) while these Skills are rather targeted my PROFESSIONS seemed to ALL Benefit by gaining Levels (Intelligence impacts all of them, most have at least some Computer/Electronics/Engineering/Mechanics to them).

    So despite doing one Specific Task that is highly targeted, my Professions all improve in the Construction Category and even my Mining (Drilling, specifically) got a Profession Bump.

    865 Skills (5 of which were Attributes) on 2,500 Attempts and a Cost of 12 PED. I've done 5,000 Attempts at a much higher PED cost while Crafting and only received 9-11 Skill.

    There is simply nothing I know of that can remotely compare to how effective this is, and I do believe the numbers over the first 2,500 Attempts bare that out.

    Well, I'm not done yet... many many more attempts to go!
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
  17. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Woohoo! 2nd run of 2500 Repair Attempts! Let's see where we are compared to the last Run.

    Vehicle Repairing - Newbie - 1 +384 (385) +156 (541)
    Vehicle Technology - Newbie - 1 +178 (179) +116 (295)

    Intelligence - 18 +5 (23) +2 (25)

    Electronics - Inept - 13 +107 (120) +81 (201)
    Engineering - Green - 223 +94 (317) +62 (379)
    Mechanics - Mediocre - 74 +93 (167) +73 (240)

    As expected, we can see the 2nd Set gained much less than the 1st Set, but still at an amazingly fast rate. 490 Skills on 2500 Attempts, and the 20K Welding Wire was gifted to me (free) while STILL using my first Repair Kit, so this 2nd run was of no additional cost.

    Amazingly Efficient!
     
  18. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    5,000 Repair Attempts and 12.00 PED in Costs, a Net Gain of 1,355 Skill Points Gained.

    Just amazing stuff.
     
  19. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    So my first 2 Runs were 2,500 Click Attempts each for 5K Attempts using 40K Wire.

    I have sense done 60K more wire (each RK-5 burns out about 50K wire) for 100K Total.

    So 12,500 Attempts is where I am at right now, with an Update. I haven't even looked yet, since most of this was over-night while AFK, so I hope these numbers excite all of us! :D

    Vehicle Repairing - Newbie - 1 +384 (385) +156 (541) +482 (1023)
    Vehicle Technology - Newbie - 1 +178 (179) +116 (295) +200 (495)

    Intelligence - 18 +5 (23) +2 (25) +5 (30)

    Electronics - Inept - 13 +107 (120) +81 (201) +178 (379)
    Engineering - Green - 223 +94 (317) +62 (379) +154 (533)
    Mechanics - Mediocre - 74 +93 (167) +73 (240) +136 (376)

    1115 more Skills, with 5 being Attributes, at the additional cost of 19.60 for the RK-5 and 60K Welding Wire.

    Since I started I have spent 31.60 PED and gained 2,506 Skill Points (12 of them Attributes).

    EVERY Construction Profession has moved past 1, and the Vehicle Structural Engineer Profession is already at 5. Even Drilling and Archaeologist, from the Mining Professions, have Leveled.

    I wanted to be able to report any Success Rate Improvements from my BPs, but I have no Construction Terminal here in Space, so unable to report on that yet.

    On a side note, a few nice Gunners 'shared loot' while hunting. I've gained 2.25 PED, or about the value of 20K Welding Wire for more Skills, just from people being kind and 'tipping' the Repair Crew. Obviously, you won't make a living like that, but these Skills are already cheap when considering the alternative... so every PEC you get in this manner just makes it that much more efficient.

    I've also met some good people up here, so the social aspect is a bonus as well.

    Edited: A fun note, since I have some down time.

    On this first run of 12,500 Repair Attempts I have earn 1 Skill Point for every 00.01261 PED spent. It's just down right amazing when you put it in a Skill Per PED perspective.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
  20. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    And that is done... well, just the 25,000 Attempts. Still no Blue Print Comprehension, so after this update I'm back to it.

    That was a 100K Wire, 2X RK-5 Run, for 12,500 Attempts, costing 36.00 PED.

    Vehicle Repairing - Newbie - 1 +384 (385) +156 (541) +482 (1023) +467 (1490)
    Vehicle Technology - Newbie - 1 +178 (179) +116 (295) +200 (495) +254 (749)

    Intelligence - 18 +5 (23) +2 (25) +5 (30) +4 (34)

    Electronics - Inept - 13 +107 (120) +81 (201) +178 (379) +122 (501)
    Engineering - Green - 223 +94 (317) +62 (379) +154 (533) +239 (772)
    Mechanics - Mediocre - 74 +93 (167) +73 (240) +136 (376) +112 (488)

    Another 1,198 Skills at a Cost of 36.00 (and an estimated 6 Hours of Repairing).

    For a total of 25,000 Attempts costing 67.60 PED over 12 Hours of actual Repair Time, resulting in 3704 Skills, for a Skill Per PED of 00.018251.

    While the cost IS rising, the full value is still amazing!

    Well, on to the next 100K of Wire, and hopefully BFC!

    Oh, Profession Vehicle Repair Engineer is finally at 8!
     

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