Ardorjies Crazy Uneconomic Huntinglog on Halix

The latest one, yesterday with the same weapon as last. Nothing new happening here unfortuatly.

Hunt #100: Mux-1 EnergyGlove

Proffessions:

-	Brawler (Dmg)	Brawler (Hit)	Dmg/Sec	Dmg/PEC
Before	28,4203	25,0140	5,15	1,364
After	28,4306	25,0305
Increase	00,0103	00,0165

Costs:

-	Decay
Mux-1 EnergyGlove	19,35918
S.I. H.E.A.R.T.	00,07200
Bukin's Blade	00,06800
InvestaFoe ES300	00,69300
Total	20,19218

Loottable:

Animal Hide	00,02000
Animal Muscle Oil	03,15000
Animal Oil Residue	00,41000
Blazar Fragment	00,00034
BLP Pack	00,12630
Miluca Timber	02,00000
Nova Fragment	00,00096
Paint Can (Green)	00,35000
Socket I Component	01,70000
Soft Hide	00,20000
Tier I Component	00,50000
Weapon Cells	00,79890
Total	09,41200

Halix: 77
Return: 46,612%
Music: The Offspring = Smash

Comments: It's better then the previous one and that's about as positive as I can get.

Ardorj

 

This is the hunt from yesterday-evening with quite a lot of nice minies, nothing much in between and a skill boost on the last four Halixes. I was rather optimistic during this hunt.
[EDIT] Forgot to note down the Miluca Timber first time, done so now. [/EDIT]

Hunt #101: Castorian EnKnuckles-1

Proffessions:

-	Brawler (Dmg)	Brawler (Hit)	Dmg/Sec	Dmg/PEC
Before	28,4308	25,0309	3,70 (+1)	1,759
After	28,4611	25,0727
Increase	00,0303	00,0418

Costs:

-	Decay
Mux-1 EnergyGlove	17,47650
S.I. H.E.A.R.T.	00,06300
Bukin's Blade	00,10200
InvestaFoe ES300	00,79200
Total	18,43350

Loottable:

Animal Hide	00,63000
Animal Muscle Oil	06,03000
Animal Oil Residue	00,55000
Blazar Fragments	00,00019
BLP Pack	00,15670
Halix Hide	01,35000
Miluca Timber	03,00000
Nova Fragment	00,00144
Paint Can (Green)	02,66000
Socket I Component	00,30000
Surface Hardener Component	00,20000
Tier I Component	00,20000
Weapon Cells	01,34420
Total	16,42253

Halix: 88
Return: 89,091%
Music: The Ex = Turn

Comments: I was almost convinced that this would be the turn for a profit with some nice minies, but alas no such luck this day.

Ardorj

 

I'm almost done with this experiment as far as I wanted to go when I started and that makes me happy.
I've bought a Khorum Ice Dagger that I want for the next experiment I'm planning and that too makes me happy.
This latest hunt with the Mux-1 is like most of them and therefor makes me rather sad.

Hunt #102: Mux-1 EnergyGlove

Proffessions:

-	Brawler (Dmg)	Brawler (Hit)	Dmg/Sec	Dmg/PEC
Before	28,4613	25,0739	5,15	1,364
After	28,4821	25,1035
Increase	00,0208	00,0296

Costs:

-	Decay
Mux-1 EnergyGlove	19,35918
S.I. H.E.A.R.T.	00,12600
Bukin's Blade	00,05100
InvestaFoe ES300	00,65700
Total	20,19318

Loottable:

Animal Hide	00,51000
Animal Muscle Oil	03,06000
Animal Oil Residue	00,44000
Blazar Fragment	00,00023
BLP Pack	00,24000
Halix Hide	00,35000
Halix Tail	00,08000
Miluca Timber	01,25000
Nova Fragment	00,00044
Paint Can (Green)	00,49000
Socket I Component	00,30000
Tier I Component	00,10000
Weapon Cells	00,30260
Total	07,12327

Halix: 74
Return: 35,276%
Music: Rashanim = The Gathering

Comments: Let's gather round the carcass of the old defeated Halix with no loot.
I do want to buy one more Khorum, please give me a note if you got or know one for sale.

Ardorj

 

I've done three hunts yesterday and all were a failure. There was just nothing in those Halixes.
Since Entropedia isn't save (I'm getting warning from Google/ Firefox, see also here on PlanetCalyspForum) I can't get the Dmg/Sec and Dmg/PEC. I've tried to make the formula myself, but I've made a mistake somewhere.

Hunt #103: Mux-2 EnergyGlove

Proffessions:

-	Brawler (Dmg)	Brawler (Hit)	Dmg/Sec	Dmg/PEC
Before	28,4821	25,1035	unknown	unknown
After	28,5109	25,1434
Increase	00,0288	00,0399

Costs:

-	Decay
Mux-2 EnergyGlove	26,68064
S.I. H.E.A.R.T.	00,03600
Bukin's Blade	00,03400
InvestaFoe ES300	00,72900
Total	27,47964

Loottable:

Animal Hide	00,72000
Animal Muscle Oil	02,76000
Animal Oil Residue	00,44000
Nova Fragments	00,00080
BLP Pack	00,14650
Explosive Projectiles	00,93210
Focus Lense Component	00,40000
Halix Hide	00,30000
Halix Leg Fur	01,00000
Halix Tail	00,06000
Miluca Timber	02,05000
Nova Fragment	00,00124
Paint Can (Green)	00,56000
Socket I Component	00,40000
Tier I Component	00,20000
Weak Cloth Extractor	00,01000
Weapon Cells	00,65070
Total	10,83134

Halix: 82
Return: 39,416%
Music: Elvis Costello = Secret, Profane and Sugarcane

Comments: It's no secret that using the Mux-2 EnergyGlove won't give you sugarsweet loot.

Ardorj

 

Second hunt from yesterday, better yet at the same time equally bad.

Hunt #104: Castorian EnKnuckles-1

Proffessions:

-	Brawler (Dmg)	Brawler (Hit)	Dmg/Sec	Dmg/PEC
Before	28,5109	25,1434	unknown	unknown
After	28,5425	25,1889
Increase	00,0316	00,0455

Costs:

-	Decay
Mux-1 EnergyGlove	17,47650
S.I. H.E.A.R.T.	00,19800
Bukin's Blade	00,06800
InvestaFoe ES300	00,74700
Total	18,48950

Loottable:

Advanced Mineral Extractor	00,02000
Animal Hide	00,63000
Animal Muscle Oil	02,40000
Animal Oil Residue	00,53000
Blazar Fragments	00,00039
BLP Pack	00,16440
Halix Hide	01,85000
Hail Tail	00,04000
Miluca Timber	01,80000
Nova Fragment	00,00011
Paint Can (Green)	00,28000
Paint Can (Olive)	00,10000
Socket I Component	00,20000
Soft Hide	00,10000
Tier I Component	00,20000
Weak Cloth Extractor	00,06000
Weapon Cells	00,58340
Total	08,95830

Halix: 84
Return: 48,451%
Music: Slayer = South of Heaven

Comments: It sounds like I live south of the Lootpool.

Ardorj

 

And here is the last one from yesterday. I'll probably do this next - final! - run later today. After that it's waiting for Entropedia to come back online so that I can determine the latest Dmg/PEC and Dmg/Sec.

Hunt #105: Mux-2 EnergyGlove

Proffessions:

-	Brawler (Dmg)	Brawler (Hit)	Dmg/Sec	Dmg/PEC
Before	28,5425	25,1889	unknown	unknown
After	28,5642	25,2199
Increase	00,0217	00,0310

Costs:

-	Decay
Mux-2 EnergyGlove	26,68064
S.I. H.E.A.R.T.	00,07200
Bukin's Blade	00,08500
InvestaFoe ES300	00,76500
Total	27,60264

Loottable:

Animal Hide	00,34000
Animal Muscle Oil	03,21000
Animal Oil Residue	00,59000
Nova Fragments	00,00018
BLP Pack	00,11330
Explosive Projectiles	00,78940
Miluca Timber	02,70000
Nova Fragment	00,00079
Paint Can (Green)	01,33000
Socket I Component	00,80000
Weapon Cells	00,59750
Total	10,47117

Halix: 86
Return: 37,935%
Music: Dmitri Shostakovich = Symphony No. 4

Comments: Here's hoping that the final battle will be a positive run, yet I am realistic.

Ardorj

 

The last hunt of this experiment I've completed last sunday. Of course, it had to be another terrible hunt.

I still have to do much of the calculating, probably will do a part later today. From what I've calculated already it seems to be straightforward that indeed the Eco (Dmg/PEC) of the weapon is related to the average return % of said weapon. What remains to be seen is if resources/ materials are more frequently looted with a weapon with lower Eco compared to a weapon with higher Eco.

A friend asked me if this experiment is a failure. By far, it isn't, because now I've gained the knowledge of how the Eco of ones weapon is (a) keyfactor to ones return %, and when I've done more calculating also what it can mean if I choose a weapon that is 0,010 Dmg/PEC more Eco. I now also know for a fact that still using old skool weapons (at my level) is a garanteed loss, I had still been using those before I started here.
Expensive lesson? It costed me more then 2100 PEDs in total now. Of that I got ~68% back, wealth of information and knowledge, the Brawler (Hit) has gone up about 5,25 levels and the Brawler (Dmg) more then 3,5 levels.

Another thing to note is that I quite enjoyed doing this experiment per se, the collecting of the data, interpreting the data, discussions about my experiment and providing the community with this information. Therefor I want to continue doing experiments on my huntingstyle, because I am convinced that I'm doing more things if not wrong then at least it could be done better.
The next experiment that I am planning is one about the size of the hunt. Some say that you need to spend x amount of PEDs at any given hunt for the results to become better. I believe that's not the cause and that each indivudual mob is calculated seperatly so that it does not matter wether you kill 10, 10, 100, 1000 creatures in one hunt.
I'm still planning the setup, probably will do runs with 10, 20, 50, 100, 150 and 250 kills. I want to look for a nice (L) fap since I am still using a FAP-90 today and for once I will not be stubborn. Most likely will do it naked, finisher I haven't deceided yet if any and if so what weapon. The main weapon will be Khorum Ice Daggers, I have two already and I would like to have a third. If any one has one or knows one for sale, do not hesitate to contact me!

Hunt #106: Mux-1 EnergyGlove

Proffessions:

-	Brawler (Dmg)	Brawler (Hit)	Dmg/Sec	Dmg/PEC
Before	28,5651	25,2208	unknown	unknown
After	28,5843	25,2483
Increase	00,0192	00,0275

Costs:

-	Decay
Mux-1 EnergyGlove	19,35918
S.I. H.E.A.R.T.	00,05400
Bukin's Blade	00,11900
InvestaFoe ES300	00,64800
Total	20,18018

Loottable:

Animal Hide	00,72000
Animal Muscle Oil	05,25000
Animal Oil Residue	00,39000
Blazar Fragment	00,00055
BLP Pack	00,20530
Explosive Projectiles	00,34050
Halix Leg Fur	00,50000
Miluca Timber	02,85000
Nova Fragment	00,00107
Paint Can (Green)	00,21000
Socket I Component	00,50000
Surface Hardener Component	00,20000
Tier I Component	00,40000
Weapon Cells	01,15920
Total	12,72662

Halix: 73
Return: 63,065%
Music: NoFX = The Decline

Comments: The declination of loot is over now. After this hunt I took on my duty as a colonist to defend Sentosa against the Oratan onslaught and I got rewarded with a very nice profitable hunt.
Ardorj

 

Conclusion & Discussion I: The Different Types of Loot

I've done a bit of calculations today (really, most is done by the OpenOffice-type Excel). It looks very convincing that there's an almost direct correlation between the Eco and Return %, but I think that I don't have used the most correct numbers, so I'll have to postpone that conclusion.

The first that I want to give a conclusion of is does the Eco (Dmg/PEC) of a weapon relates to what you loot. First there will be many boring/ interesting numbers (depending of how one looks at them) and at the end some graphics to make it visionable what all the text in between and futher on, because I couldn't stop typing means.

To make it a bit more clear what I am discussing here I start with that. It is an answer to the question of if you get other loot when you use another weapon. Could you, if you hunt Halixes for their hides, have more change to loot that with weapon #1, weapon #2, or weapon #n? To say it otherwise: do you loot more (stackable) items with better markup with an uneconomic weapon when compared to an economic weapon?

The first step I've taking is to order the different materials I've looted from the Halixes from the lowest to the highest markup. The markup I've taken is the monthly markup of today, 21-jan-2014, looked up ingame.
Second is that I summed up of all 25 Hunts of any PowerFist each individual material. Then I summed up the total loot gained and calculated how many percent of the sum of each material is looted of the total loot. I have trouble rewording what I want to say here, what I'm trying to say is that I came up with numbers that let me see the change to loot a material from each weapon. For example: Halix Hide is at 04,604% for the EnKnuckles-1, that means that when I hunt Halixes with that weapon and get a total of 10,00 PEDs that on average 0,46 PED will be in the form of Halix Hide.
In a table, it looks like this with everything in percent:

[/TR]

Material	Markup (%)	EnKnuckles-A	EnKnuckles-1[/TD]	Mux-1	Mux-2
BLP Pack	TT-Sold	02,715	02,365	03,932	02,629
Weapon Cells	TT-Sold	08,993	08,533	09,444	10,752
Halix Leg Fur	100,00	01,921	05,147	03,872	04,049
Animal Oil Residue	100,82	05,381	04,363	03,460	03,485
Explosive Projectiles	101,57	02,235	03,024	02,486	02,463
Wool	102,03	02,651	00,515	01,239	00,354
Animal Muscle Oil	102,09	28,123	35,393	25,772	30,025
Soft Hide	102,11	00,406	00,600	00,434	00,734
Surface Hardener Component	102,25	00,108	00,515	00,062	00,304
Animal Hide	102,32	06,122	04,990	04,718	04,484
Fine Wool	102,32	00,000	00,000	00,124	01,518
Thin Wool	102,49	00,541	00,214	04,260	01,012
Paint Can (Green)	102,58	07,840	07,446	05,378	06,714
Focus Lense Component	103,10	01,407	01,887	04,213	03,340
Socket I Component	103,95	05,167	03,317	04,802	04,150
Miluca Timber	107,73	15,651	13,682	14,979	15,740
Fine Hide	108,03	00,068	00,000	00,000	00,316
Inferior Cloth Extractor	110,48	00,000	00,000	00,000	00,000
Tier I Component	110,84	03,111	02,688	02,509	02,455
Paint Can (Purple)	113,62	00,065	00,051	00,037	00,288
Paint Can (Orange)	113,89	00,000	00,000	00,000	00,000
Weak Cloth Extractor	115,75	00,795	00,206	00,508	00,195
Halix Hide	120,78	05,533	04,604	06,986	04,466
Paint Can (Olive)	164,53	00,703	00,272	00,542	00,278
Strong Cloth Extractor	192,81	00,192	00,046	00,112	00,137
Basic Plastic Extractor	332,57	00,024	00,014	00,000	00,003
Advanced Mineral Extractor	375,44	00,157	00,071	00,062	00,058
Nova Fragment	2545,28	00,007	00,005	00,005	00,004
Halix Tail	2604,17	00,081	00,051	00,062	00,046
Blazar Fragment	31812,6	00,001	00,001	00,001	00,001

The first thing to note is that although I have noted down Inferior Cloth Extractor and Paint Can (Orange) as loot, I haven't looted any of these. That is, except in the very first hunts which I discarded later on. These two material are noted in red in the table above.

Because it is not easy to compare for exampe with Halix Hide 5,533%, 4,604%, 6,986% and 4,466% I've done another calculation-step. Sum it up for each material and then calculate the percent for each weapon. With Halix Hide I then get 21,321%, 25,627%, 32,360% and 20,689%. Please note that this only means that the third weapon (Mux-1) has the highest change to give me a Halix Hide compared to all other materials. It does therefor not mean that a hunt with the Mux-1 has the best change to give me a Halix Hide, because that also largely depends on the return percent of the total of the hunt.

I think is has a bit more meaning when I show some graphics of how that looks like and for clearance I splitted it in three graphs.

View attachment 8720
Graphic 1: BLP Pack (TT-Sold) till Animal Hide (102,32%)
View attachment 8721
Graphic 2: Fine Wool (102,32%) till Weak Cloth Extractor (115,75%)
View attachment 8722
Graphic 3: Halix Hide (120,78%) till Blazar Fragment (31812,6%)

There are points (or should I say bars?) that are unusual high compared to those from the other weapons. I try to explain those.
BLP Pack (Mux-1):Looted a total of 12,63 PED worth of BLP Pack. In one hunt 3,90 (>30%) and another 2,58 (>20%). Next best BLP Pack-lootgiver is the EnKnuckles-A with total of 10,03 PED and highest of 1,02 PED in one loot. EnKnuckles-1 and Mux-2 have as most in one hunt 2,29 PED and 3,02 PED respectivily, but with a lower total.
Wool (EnKnuckles-A): One loot of 7,60 PED from a total of 9,80 PED (>75%).
Surface Hardener Component (EnKnuckles-1): One loot of 1,00 PED and a total of 1,80 PED. The next best weapon for this material is the Mux-2 with a total of 1,20 PED.
Fine Wool (Mux-2): One (and only) loot of 6,00 PED.
Thin Wool (Mux-1): One loot of 12,00 PED from a total of 13,75 PED (>85%).
Focus Lense Component (Mux-1): One loot of 6,20 PED and another of 3,00 PED.Totalling 13,60 PEDs while the next best weapon, EnKnuckles-1, gave only 6,60 PED in five hunts.
Fine Hide (Mux-2): One (and only) loot of 1,25 PED.
Paint Can (Purple) (Mux-2): One loot of 0,60 PED wich is >50% of total Paint Can (Purple), looted in five hunts. All three other weapons looted <0,30 PED of this.
Weak Cloth Extractor till Blazar Fragment (EnKnuckles-A): I think that this is due to the better economy (Dmg/PEC) of the EnKnuckles-A.

What you can see is that in the last graphic, the one with the highest markup materials, the EnKnuckles-A being every time the best weapon, with the exception of the first (Halix Hide). It could be a coincidence, but together with the fact that from here the markup really starts to kick in with 120,78% for the Halix Hide and 164,53% for the next material Paint Can (Olive), I think that I can draw savely the conclusion that a weapon with better economy gives a higher change to loot materials with a higher markup and possible items with a higher markup too.

A last thing of interest to note is what I've looted in globals. In six globals I've looted the following stuff ( Empty places means I don't loot that material at all with that weapon; 00,00 means I've seen 0,00 PED looted of something in the loot-message. )

-	EnKnuckels-A	EnKnuckles-1	Mux-1	Mux-2
Animal Muscle Oil	00,60	43,32	00,12	12,90
Animal Oil Residue	00,01	00,02	00,01	00,02
BLP Pack	-	-	-	00,00
Explosive Projectiles	-	07,72	-	-
Focus Lense Component	01,20	02,20	-	03,00
Fine Wool	-	-	-	06,00
Halix Leg Fur	02,00	-	-	04,50
Miluca Timber	-	-	-	00,65
Paint Can (Green)	03,36	-	-	02,80
Tier I Component	00,50	-	-	-
Thin Wool	-	-	12,00	-
Weapon Cells	02,60	00,00	00,00	10,52

Now, let's compare this with the excessive bars I previously noted.
BLP Pack (Mux-1):None in global(s).
Wool (EnKnuckles-A): None in global(s).
Surface Hardener Component (EnKnuckles-1): None in global(s).
Fine Wool (Mux-2): One (and only) loot of 6,00 PED, this is from a global.
Thin Wool (Mux-1): One loot of 12,00 PED, this is from a global.
Focus Lense Component (Mux-1): None in global(s), even though the other weapons have looted some in global(s).
Fine Hide (Mux-2): None in global(s).
Paint Can (Purple) (Mux-2): None in global(s).
Weak Cloth Extractor till Blazar Fragment (EnKnuckles-A): Some in global(s), but not much.

In fact, the mayor loot in one type of material is by far the 43,32 PEDs of Animal Muscle Oils looted with the EnKnuckles-1. Yet nothing much, if at all, is seen of this in the graphics. It's like I need these 40+ PEDs with this weapon to set some things right. I will have to give it some bit more thought and too what I am going to do with the globals per se. It looks to me right now like they fit in perfectly and are not an abonimation at all.

Sorry for the very long post, sometimes when I start to type and thing about stuff I find it rather hard to quit.

Ardorj [/td][/tr]

 

Hi Ardorj,

Thanks for the huge amount of work you have put into this. I have read all the posts. Your record keeping has been excellent, and I especially liked your ideas about how to prevent large loots from ruining the stats.

We both knew before you started this test that you would get a better return by using a more eco weapon... in general. However, for me, the real question that remains unanswered is:

Is there a linear relationship between weapon eco and TT return? Or is it not linear? In other words, is MA providing any compensation at all for people who use a weapon with poor eco...?

Personally all I would like to see is a table with two columns as follows, and one row for each weapon you've tested.

Column 1: The weapon's economy in dam/pec
Column 2: The total TT return in PED when using that weapon

and then maybe a graph with four points on it. What do you think?

Cheers,

Forrest

 

Even if the weapon was eco at this level it's not going to be vastly more eco than the UL stuff and after hunting halix for the past year with an Enblade-a and an Axe 2x0 when the blade broke, I've had runs where the returns of 30-40% and others of 300-400%.

Granted I was only using a single knife but with a similar kill count of 70-80 halix I've only lost about 300 ped since 28-1-2012, not all on Halix but most hunts were.

I know that for me a general hunt of an Enblade A + armour costs (full gremlin) ~= 14ped with an excel sheet with records dating back to 5 November 2011.

The only other factor could be because as it's a tt blade is maxed for me but on each hunt I was 5-6ped better on costs alone.

If my excel sheet is correct in that time my total decay was 3141.22 ped and my total return was 2746.82 which is 87.44% very near the magic 90%

 

Hi ForrestPark,

I loved doing this 'work', even the times when it made me sad to see the next <40% return or like now when I got a headache from doing calculations and getting nowhere near a sound conclusion.
I've done a few experiments before and if there's one thing I've learned then it is that it's better to have too much data then miss something that makes all the data-points useless to work with.
See my previous post how the material-distribution is not dependend on the globals.

I think that the total TT-return is a pointless parameter since the costs to use these Powerfists range from ~16,49 (EnKnuckles-A) to ~26,68 (Mux-2). That is more > 61% higher TT-costs. But oké, I give you the table and include the return-%.
First off, I use the maximum Eco you can get with the weapons. Entropedia is still off, so I can't calculate the Effective Dmg/PEC yet and my own formula is unfortuatly a bit different from that on Entropedia.

Weapon	Eco (Dmg/ PEC)	Return-TT (PED)	Return-%
EnKnuckles-A	2,738	358,87998	85,650
EnKnuckles-1	2,558	349,73046	78,808
Mux-1	1,693	322,79061	66,089
Mux-2	1,435	395,16590	58,884

You see how the Mux-2 looks best when you look at the raw Return-TT? It is, not suprising, the worst weapon. In graphic this data looks like this:
View attachment 8743
The upper f(x) and R^2 are for the 'normal' returns, the lower f(x) and R^2 are for the Global Correction where each Global is replaced by 7,50 PEDs.
f(x) is a linear equation where x is the Eco (Dmg/PEC). R^2 is the correlation between the data-points, that means the four different weapons used and their average returns. This is always between 0 and 1 and the closer to 1 the 'better' the data is. For example if the linear equation would be f(x) = 10x + 2 and the datapoints would be (0; 2) (1; 12) (2; 22) (3; 32) and (4; 42) then you will get an R^2=1. But when the first four datapoints are the same, yet the last is (4; 52) then you obviously can no longer draw a straight line between the points and the R^2 becomes 0,97..., wich is still pretty good.
That being said, the first equation with R^2=0,979156.... is very convincing, better then what I get with my Global Correction, another proof for me that I simply need to leave these in.
A little more mathematics if you don't mind.
f(x) = 0,187386x + 0,328945
0,90 Return [%; 0-1] = 0,187386* Dmg/PEC + 0,328945
0,571055 Return [%; 0-1]= 0,187386* Dmg/PEC
3,0475 Dmg/PEC = 90,00% Return
And that is of course very close to what everyone's favorite MindArk Official is saying the magic Eco of your weapon should be. To break even (100% return) I would need a weapon with an Eco of 3,5811 Dmg/PEC. Eeek! OooOoOOooOooOOoOoo

I am trying to figure out if one weapon gives better Skill-Progress now, but I am afraid the answer will be first "Not enough data to calculate" and the second will be "No."
Ah well, the main question I almost have answered now.

Ardorj

 

Hello Spike Black,

Sorry, I don't know what you mean with "Even if the weapon was eco at this level it's not going to be vastly more eco than the UL stuff [...]" ?
The Castorian Survival EnBlade-A has a lower TT then the EnKnuckles-A, but does more damage. When both decay our weapon complete you would have done 5170 damage and I 6498 (simple calculation of max damage * max uses) so it stands to reason that I could kill more Halixes then you, 122 average.

The Survival-A decays less then the EnKnuckles-A so that's where your lower costs come from. Eco is almost the same 2,742 versus 2,738. The outcome is also quite similar with 85,65% for me. My guess is the difference is more in the huntingstyle or other parameters of the weapons.
Killcosts, the cost to kill just one Halix with a weapon. For me with the EnKnuckles-A it's 0,13719 PED average. Can you calculate the same?
Dmg/Sec, the Survival-A is better with 5,6 versus 5,1. A Halix might not regenerate much, but they do (I believe).
Overkill, with the Survival-A doing more damage, I would do less overkill.
Other costs, S.I. H.E.A.R.T. is one of the most economic healingkits. Perhaps the scanner costs affects me negetively? Gotta ask you, why use Gremlin on Halix?

Ardorj

 

Discussion and Conclusion II: Proffessiongains

It took me longer than anticipated due to some miscalculations, because I was unsure wich numbers to use. The first challenge was to find out if there was anything constructive to say about the difference in proffessiongains. The differences from one hunt to another with the same weapon are great and at a minimum between one weapon and the next.
I started (the first discarded not counting) with 20,1135 Brawler (Hit) and 25,0760 Brawler (Dmg). I ended 100 hunts later with 25,2483 Brawler (Hit) and 28,5843 Brawler (Dmg), an increase of 5,1348 in Brawler (Hit) and 3,5083 in Brawler (Dmg).
See the next table about some facts of the proffessiongains.

-	EnKnuckles-A	EnKnuckles-1	Mux-1	Mux-2
Total gained (Hit)	1,5929	1,0484	1,0062	1,1346
Total gained (Dmg)	1,0940	0,7143	0,6722	0,7799
Average (Hit)	0,0637	0,0419	0,0402	0,0454
Average (Dmg)	0,0438	0,0286	0,0269	0,0312
Minimum (Hit)	0,0287	0,0241	0,0165	0,0292
Maximum (Hit)	0,1265	0,0877	0,0837	0,0921
Minimum (Dmg)	0,0187	0,0183	0,0103	0,0208
Maximum (Dmg)	0,0888	0,0625	0,0561	0,0657
Standard Deviation (Hit)	0,0298	0,0153	0,0160	0,0166
Standard Deviation (Dmg)	0,0206	0,0111	0,0105	0,0118

The Standard Deviation for all four is high. It is the range plus and minus the average in wich roughly two-thirds fits. Twice the Standard Deviation accounts for >95% of all fits. It is high because you can take just about any average proffessiongain of any weapon, subtract or add the Standard Deviation and the three remaining weapons will fit in perfectly.
But then, there is a wide difference in decay of the weapons (TT), Halixes killed and other such things. So I need to get all four in line. For that I calculated the proffesiongain of both Hit and Dmg per hunt as if I'd killed 1000 Halixes. Example with the Mux-1, Hitgain, Hunt #106:
Starting with 25,2208 and ending with 25,2483 = 0,0275 Progress.
73 Halixes killed; 0,0275 / 73 = 0,0003767 proffessiongain per Halix.
0,0003767 * 1000 = 0,3767 proffessiongain per 1000 Halixes.
Do so for all hunts and the results are in the next table.

-	EnKnuckles-A	EnKnuc-kles-1	Mux-1	Mux2
Average (Hit)	0,5217	0,4916	0,5433	0,5342
Average (Dmg)	0,3584	0,3351	0,3630	0,3673
Minimum (Hit)	0,2371	0,2903	0,2143	0,3356
Maximum (Hit)	1,0541	1,0440	1,1160	1,1232
Minimum (Dmg)	0,1558	0,2136	0,1338	0,2419
Maximum (Dmg)	0,7400	0,7440	0,7480	0,8012
Standard Deviation (Hit)	0,2454	0,1812	0,2192	0,1966
Standard Deviation (Dmg)	0,1699	0,1319	0,1436	0,1396

Now they appear to be all rather similair. Some differences here and there, but nothing shocking and again a high Standard Deviation. With these numbers I can calculate a little further, for example the proffessiongain-1000 per killcost; uses of weapon; average damage done to a Halix; Eco; Dmg/ Sec; average hits done to a Halix.
Three things stand out as possible related to the proffessiongains, these are: 1) Eco (Dmg/ PEC), 2) Killcost (PED), 3) Uses Total (n). Now the third option is because I was desperate to come up with anything that might give a relation between a factor and the proffessiongain. The Total Uses (n) follow the same line as does the Eco, meaning that the weapon with the best Dmg/ PEC (EnKnuckles-A) also has the most Total Uses (1083). That leaves me with two options of wich one is a result of another, or in other words it is just the Eco of the Powerfists that counts.
In a table it looks like this:

-	EnKnuckles-A	EnKnuckles-1	Mux-1	Mux-2
Eco (Dmg/PEC)	2,738	2,558	1,693	1,435
Average (Hit)	0,1905	0,1922	0,3209	0,3723
Average (Dmg)	0,1309	0,1310	0,2144	0,2559
Stand Deviation (Hit)	0,0896	0,0708	0,1295	0,1370
Stand Deviation (Dmg)	0,0621	0,0516	0,0848	0,0973

And again, the Standard Deviation is unrelenting high. But there also seems to be a relation between the Eco of the weapon and the Average proffessiongain per 1000 Halixes. To make it a bit more visible if there really is a difference or if it is all just a coincidence I made for myself two graphics.
View attachment 8748

View attachment 8749
Note (1): Gemiddelde is Dutch for Average.
Note (2): The green and yellow lines, the average proffessiongains, are stacked on top of each other and therefor one might not be seen.
Note (3): When I started calculating the proffessiongains, I named it Skillgains. These graphics are ofcourse about the gains in the proffessions Brawler (Hit) and Brawler (Dmg).

The best proffessiongainer, Mux-2, is significantly higher then the worst, EnKnuckles-A. The R^2 of the Trendline for the Hit and Dmg-gains are not too shabby, 0,9845 and 0,9755. I deem that's good enough to make a conclusion on.
PG_(Hit) (Eco) = -0,1429 Eco + 0,5700 [per 1000 Halixes]
PG_(Dmg) (Eco) = -0,0966 Eco + 0,3866 [per 1000 Halixes]
The minus-signs are to denote that with an increase in the economy of a chosen weapon there will be a decrease in the proffessiongain (PG). These two are not formula for all, because it also depends largely on the creatures killed and the proffession level at wich on starts. My Brawler (Hit) raises ~1,5 times faster then my Brawler (Dmg) and I think that's for a part to blame to my higher Brawler (Dmg).

Something completely different and perhaps at interest for those who read this Huntinglog: I've bought a third Khorum Ice Dagger yesterday that I will use soon on another experiment, about the difference between a short and large hunt.

Ardorj

 

Hi Ardorj,

So... it's a linear relationship between weapon eco (damage per pec) and TT return (pec) then.

Job done! Thanks for all your hard work.

You appear to have also discovered that skill gains are proportional to the COST of using a weapon rather than the DAMAGE DONE by the weapon. Nice work. I will get around to posting about this on my old PCF thread.

Cheers,

Forrest

 

Thanks, I've been looking at my data a little bit closer to try to find out something more or different. To my mathematical horror I've made a reference-mistake in Excell. Nothing important for all the previous data calculated and posted here fortuatly.

Thanks, good work on your post over at PlanetCalypsoForum! I haven't thought about what some of them says there "the increase in skillgains could be due to not having those weapons maxed."

Discussion and Conclusion III: Dmg/ PEC or something else?

There are only so many paramaters that could have a meaning that we can calculate with. 1) Max damage, 2) Hits per [time], 3) PEC per Hit, 4) Hit Level, 5) Dmg Level. And then there are an infinite amount of others that people (want to) believe in that could be true, but are extremely hard to prove. 1) Time of day, 2) The Wave-Effect, 3) Personal favours from MindArk, 4) Desposit History, 5) The Göthenburg Weather(forcast), 6) Perception-gains, 7) ..., ...., ...., n) Hidden algorithm per weapon.
With just the five that are available to all we can calculate an infinite number of new parameters. For example, to calculate the Dmg/ PEC you will need the Max Damage, PEC per Hit, Hit Level and Dmg Level. Throw in some square roots, divine, substract, powers and other maths that will make the average schoolboy and -girl cry and one is left with too many formula's, many with no (logical) meaning whatsoever and yet some with suprisingly good results. But alas for now is there something wrong in my early lines of calculations, meaning that I will have to review it all, if I want too.

Effective Damage
This is nothing strange, but it is quite hard to come by and it took me some time to figure it out myself. What is means is the average Dmg you can do with a weapon, taken into account Critical Hits, Missed shots and a few other things as well. It is: =Dmg[SUB]Max[/SUB]*((0,001*Hit[SUB]Level[/SUB])+0,8)*((0,00125*Dmg[SUB]Level[/SUB])+0,625)+((Dmg[SUB]Max[/SUB]/100)+(Dmg[SUB]Max[/SUB]/1000)*Hit[SUB]Level[/SUB]^[SUP]0,5[/SUP])
And then this is only for weapons that are maxed out at level 100 without enhancers.
Plotting these in a graphic reveals something of wich it is abundant clear that is has no meaning for the outcome of the return.
View attachment 8816
Not bothering to write much else about it or even explain wich weapon has the best Effective Damage.

Damage per Second
How much this is loved by those who say you need to kill a creature as fast as possible! It might hold true for creatures with a fast regeneration like Atrox, Scoria, Argonaut, you name them but certainly not for a Halix. To calculate this you'll need this formula: =(Hits[SUB]per minute[/SUB]/60)*Dmg[SUB]Effective[/SUB]
View attachment 8817
It is somewhat better then the Effective Damage, but with a R[SUP]2[/SUP] of 0,32 or thereabout it is still nothing to hold on too.
It will be interesting to see at what level of regeneration the Dmg/ Sec becomes an important factor.

PEC per Second
This isn't heard of much, but isn't all that weird. It is how much you pay each second using a weapon and is therefor a combination of its uses per minute and decay per hit by this formula: =Decay_(PEC)/[Hits_(per minute)/60].
I can get a straight line through the four points, sort of with a R^2 of ~0,70 wich is no good. It does however point towards the 0,00 PEC/ Sec as being better then 3,00 PEC/ Sec so perhaps it can be useful in expressing the view of reducing ones hunting costs. With that I mean secondary costs like armour-decay and/ or fap-decay and that is something that do want to experiment with some (time) later (year).
View attachment 8818
The best with PEC/ Sec is the EnKnuckles-A with 1,235 and that also happens to be the best in Dmg/ PEC.

Damage per PEC
I've made it a tad more difficult for myself, due to me having chosen three unmaxed weapons. The question then becomes as to what data to use, Dmg/ PEC as if maxed-out; as on every hunt; as an average? I've settled for maxed-out that I've shown earlier and as an average. For the average I've used a Brawler (Hit) level of 22,6800 and Brawler (Dmg) level of 26,8300.
To calculate the Dmg/ PEC this formula is used: =Dmg_(Effective)/Decay_(PEC).

A little of the same for a previous post: With calculation the Dmg/ PEC as Maxed-out I get a R^2=0,979156 with the formula Return(Dmg/PEC) = 0,187386Dmg/PEC + 0,328945. To get 90.00% return, I will need a Dmg/ PEC of 3,0475.
When with calculation the Effective Damage of a Brawler (Hit) = 22,68 and Brawler (Dmg) = 26,83 things do look different. See this little table first:

-	EnKnuckles-A	EnKnuckles-1	Mux-1	Mux-2
Dmg/ PEC	2,738	1,748	1,356	1,148
Return %	85,65%	78,81%	66,09%	58,88%
Global Correction	84,99%	68,50%	65,14%	56,23%

View attachment 8819
In the graph you can also see the formulas (square-equation) and the correlations. The line with the Global Correction does look better now, but with the EnKnuckles-1 being a bit out of spec that way (difference of >10% compared to ~1,5%) I doubt it is anything good to go by. The new equation with Globals left in becomes thus Return%(Dmg/PEC) = 0,158666Dmg/PEC + 0,446310, R^2=0,856361 and that is worse then when using the weapon's Eco as if maxed-out.

But take another look at the graph, it looks like the first three points (the three unmaxed PowerFists) are in line and the four (EnKnuckles-A) being out of spec. This could mean that when you use unmaxed-out weapons you are compensated by a better loot. When doing that the equation becomes Return%(Dmg/PEC) = 0,331083Dmg/PEC + 0,210017, R^2=0,999717. See the new graphic too:
View attachment 8820
A R^2 of 0,999+ sounds fantastic and would get my jumping with joy and Eureka! if I knew more about Greek History/ Mythology then I do and if I wouldn't think If it's too good to be true, it propably is. Let's see how much of a too good to be true level this is.
To get 90.00% back:
0,9000 = 0,331082x + 0,210017
0,689983 = 0,331082x
x = 2,084 Dmg/ PEC

To get 100.00% back:
1,0000 = 0,331082x + 0,210017
0,789983 = 0,331082x
x = 2,386 Dmg/ PEC

Let me find an unmaxed weapon with a Dmg/ PEC of over 2,386! Till then I stay with my earlier conclusion that ~3,000 Dmg/ PEC is needed for a 90.00% return.

Ardorj

 

Why did you choose linear trend-lines? Any thought of using an exponential one?

 

Hello fred5283, Good question. Easy answer is that I've found that to be the best possible option. I must say however that it is close together, but I can't remember with wich data, Dmg/ PEC as maxed or average from the hunt.
I'll have time tomorrow to show it.

Side note: Ermik said on PCF in the Eco, eco, fact or fiction?-thread that my data is flawed, because I used three unmaxed and one maxed-out weapon. I have to agree and I am thinking about repeating it with another maxed-out and better Dmg/ PEC weapon.

 

The differences between one typ of equation and another isn't as large as I thought it was and in certain cases it is even slightly better. What I did is to make a trendline with for types of equation: 1) Linear, 2) Logarithmic, 3) Exponential, 4) Exponentiation. And two sets of them, one with Dmg/ PEC as maxed-out the other with the average Dmg/ PEC used in the hunts. For those who do not know the difference between these equations, here are the standard formulea:
1) Linear : f(x) = a*x + b
2) Logarithmic : f(x) = a*ln(x) + b
3) Exponential : f(x) = a^(b*x)
4) Exponentiation : f(x) = a*x^b
The reason I made trendlines with these four equations is simple: that is what my OpenOffice-Excel can do and I am not smart enough to make them myself.

To show that the outcomes are pretty close together, let's take a look at these two graph:
View attachment 8872
View attachment 8873
I must admit that I can't say with any confidence wich one is better then the rest. I am thinking about repeating it with another, fifth, weapon. That will most likely be the Laconian Sword.
See also this table with the equations and R^2's for all eight trendlines (x = Dmg/ PEC, f = Return %).

Trendline	Equation	R^2	Laconian Sword
Linear (maxed)	f(x) = 0,187386x + 0,328945	0,979156	86,32%
Linear (averaged)	f(x) = 0,158666x + 0,446310	0,856361	89,87%
Logarithmic (maxed)	f(x) = 0,380770*ln(x) + 0,453793	0,978071	85,27%
Logarithmic (averaged)	f(x) = 0,307547*ln(x) + 0,569171	0,925999	89,14%
Exponential (maxed)	f(x) = 0,412283^(0,262033x)	0,978233	51,59%
Exponential (averaged)	f(x) = 0,488855^0,218304x)	0,828251	64,05%
Exponentiation (maxed)	f(x) = 0,490442x^0,533845	0,982266	85,80%
Exponentiation (averaged)	f(x) = 0,578206x^0,425486	0,905549	90,30%

Generally speaking, taking the maxed Dmg/ PEC does look better. The Column "Laconian Sword" is the calculated return with a Laconian Sword with a Dmg/ PEC of 2,851.
It will be easy to see later if an Exponential function has any merit by scoring a return of 80% or higher. But from there on the predicted returns are all pretty much alike, at least too much alike to make any hard conclusion when I score for example a return of 89.00%.

The reason why I want to repeat it with the Laconian Sword is that it a) has similair max damage (8), b) Dmg/ Sec (6,2), c) it is maxed-out, d) better Dmg/ PEC then the best of the four PowerFists (2,851), e) easy to come by.
Downside is that is has a low maxed-TT (8.00) and I hope I can overcome that by hunting with three of these swords.

Ardorj

 

I deceided to buy two Laconian Swords for a fifth point on the graphs and hopefully get a better idea wich type of equation is the one. This does unfortuatly come with a couple of drawbacks.
1) The previous four were all PowerFists, this is a Longblade. My Swordsman Pro-standings are significantly higher and I don't know if that matters or not; I also don't know if the type of weapon used matters.
2) The max damage with the Laconian is 8. Only the Mux-2 does 8 as well, the other three 6.
3) The average Dmg/ Sec is at 6,21. That is the highest of all five now; second place is the Mux-2 (when maxed).
4) I bought and used two Laconians, because the TT is only 8.00 PED. I don't know if it matters that I use two weapons now in one hunt, compared to only one with all the previous hunts.
But there's also something good about this Laconian.
1) It is maxed out.
2) The Eco is at 2,831 Dmg/ PEC the best of all five; EnKnuckles-A is 2,738.

Hunt #107: Laconian Sword

Proffessions:

-	Swordsman (Dmg)	Swordsman (Hit)	Dmg/Sec	Dmg/PEC
Before	36,8456	38,9697	6,21 (max)	2,851 (max)
After	36,8515	38,9756
Increase	00,0059	00,0059

Costs:

-	Decay
Laconian Sword (2x)	15,52200
S.I. H.E.A.R.T.	00,18900
Bukin's Blade	00,00000
InvestaFoe ES300	01,06300
Total	16,77400

Loottable:

Animal Hide	00,63000
Animal Muscle Oil	06,84000
Animal Oil Residue	00,72000
Blazar Fragment	00,00014
BLP Pack	00,23710
Explosive Projectiles	00,34100
Focus Lense Component	00,20000
Miluca Timber	03,10000
Nova Fragment	00,00056
Paint Can (Green)	03,29000
Socket I Component	00,40000
Tier I Component	00,20000
Weapon Cells	04,16060
Wool	01,20000
Total	21,31940

Halix: 117
Return: 127,098%
Music: Dmitri Shostakovich = Symphony 5 & 6

Comments: First hunt, first profit! I'm starting to like the weapon already lol!

Ardorj

 

Second hunt in the new 'Laconian' style. Better in skills, worse in loot.

Hunt #108: Laconian Sword

Proffessions:

-	Swordsman (Dmg)	Swordsman (Hit)	Dmg/Sec	Dmg/PEC
Before	36,8617	38,9823	6,21 (max)	2,851 (max)
After	36,8686	38,9895
Increase	00,0069	00,0072

Costs:

-	Decay
Laconian Sword (2x)	15,52200
S.I. H.E.A.R.T.	00,20700
Bukin's Blade	00,06800
InvestaFoe ES300	01,05300
Total	16,85000

Loottable:

Advanced Mineral Extractor	00,04000
Animal Hide	00,43000
Animal Muscle Oil	03,93000
Animal Oil Residue	00,80000
Basic Plastic Extractor	00,01000
Blazar Fragment	00,00026
BLP Pack	00,39540
Explosive Projectiles	00,33710
Halix Hide	00,80000
Halix Leg Fur	01,50000
Miluca Timber	02,45000
Nova Fragment	00,00143
Paint Can (Green)	00,35000
Socket I Component	00,30000
Tier I Component	00,90000
Weak Cloth Extractor	00,24000
Weapon Cells	00,43870
Total	12,92289

Halix: 119
Return: 76,694%
Music: Crass = The Feeding of the 5000

Comments: You win some, you lose some.

Ardorj