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A simple idea with major Economic Impact.

Discussion in 'Wishlist' started by Bradley Killer Kell, May 25, 2015.

  1. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    I was looking at some Markets, namely Furniture and Clothing, and I understand why they aren't hot and heavy.

    How many Apartment Owners are there in Arkadia (or the Universe, but that's another topic)? What percentage of the Population?

    Once those few have the Furniture they want, there simply is no more Market.

    If every Player had a 'One Room' Living Space, which could be 'Instanced' (so as not to have an actual gigantic building with thousands of rooms... imagine trying to get to Room 5138...) then EVERYONE would be in the Market for Furniture.

    Aside from Furniture, if everyone had such a space, more people might 'throw a party' or invite small groups (one room could only accept small groups) where Clothing in the "Apartment Setting" might actually inspire more people to pick up a Shirt here or a Hat there when inviting people over (or visiting).

    It might also add to the Social Aspect of the game more.

    I'm not saying some huge Apartment with a vista, could be as simple as a 'Hotel' at the Starting Area where the Keeper logs you and guests into your little space.

    I think such an thing could have a positive impact on the Economy in Arkadia and give more Crafters more items that would actually sell... and more materials for Hunters and Miners to sell.
     
  2. Murkalael

    Murkalael Active Member

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    That's what I keep telling "slums" are the future of crafting. To make your own place you need to craft slum build left/right/front/back walls and ceilling. And the range is enormous, like craft shower cabbin, toillet pot, etc
    :D
     
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  3. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Well the idea here is a 'Free Starter Space', but your idea does take it a step further.

    That's why I just want it to be 'one room'... or 'Studio Apartment' sized. So anyone and everyone that wants to has a place, and can invite people, but with obvious limitations because it's so small.

    This would open a LOT of the Player Base to Furniture and Clothing that currently have no need or desire for these things, because they have no home.

    I mean so bone bare empty that we need to invent a 'Storage Box' BP if you wanted to store things there. LOL! Something that will allow players who WOULD purchase such Vanity Inventory to do so, if only they had a place.

    Obviously, keep the bigger area and nice vistas for those dropping 1K+ PED on the nice Apartments.
     
  4. sinkillerj

    sinkillerj Active Member

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    I've said it once in the last topic suggesting it on these forums, and I'll say it again, instances would ruin real estate in Entropia. You would also have to severely limit these estates to the point that they are useless, otherwise players would use them as storerooms. Beyond that this sounds alot like something Linden Labs tried to pull, and It is frankly quite amazing that they are not bankrupt yet, so probably not the best company to clone.
     
  5. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    1. How would it ruin Real Estate? The main thing I heard during the Bidding War that pushed a Sanctuary Cove Apartment to 3K was the view. There would be NO view in these. None. People talking about Roof Access... nope, none of that.

    The exact same people that buy that Apartments TODAY, would be the exact same people buying them TOMORROW... those that are after the LUXURY of owning one of the Apartments. The Prestige. Living in a 1 Room Box... not so prestigious.

    2. This IMMEDIATELY opens every Avatar that desires Furniture the ability to USE that Furniture. Suddenly Mats are being sold and Products are being moved and PEDs are flowing. How does helping the Economy hurt the game?

    3. Why make them useless? You could Tax them, so anyone putting a Shop in theirs still pays Arkadia for the opportunity. It would also open more people up to Beauty Professions, because they wouldn't have to own a Shop or Apartment at Thousands of PED to try to get started. Which again means, helping the Economy.

    4. Since it's just a Box, Arkadia could put some Non-Trade Items up for sell, like Wall Papers, Rugs and 'Posters/Paintings', 'Fake Views'... which would be PED/Cash going right to Arkadia Studios... which would, it seems, HELP Arkadia Studios. Since more PED going into such things would be less PED going out.

    5. What's the issue with people using it for Storage? You think people spend 3K on an Apartment just for Storage?

    The idea would open markets and give more values to more Materials in Arkadia, while also driving more Players to Arkadia from other Planets... increasing the PEDs being put into Arkadia.

    You speak of Linden Labs and how you are 'amazed' they aren't bankrupt (I know nothing of this)... but then I look at EU and it hasn't reported a Profit for the Year in the last 5 Years (maybe longer, it only went back 5 Years on the 2014 Financial Statement I just got done reading). So EU is going to need to do SOMETHING to get back in the Black and out of the RED, or you will be finding EU bankrupt while Linden Labs is surviving. In other words, something is broke and they need to fix it. Linden made a move trying to fix it, while EU is surviving off huge deals made over 7 Years ago... and that bottom line is getting closer and closer to 0 each year that passes.
     
  6. Lightz

    Lightz Active Member

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    The main reason why people buy furniture is because they have an attachment to their apartment. I don't think people would be willing to spend hundreds to thousands of ped on furniture if their house looked like some dodgy place. Look at some of the houses on Calypso and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
     
  7. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Fair point... but then if you had a 'Box' you wouldn't buy hundreds to thousands in Furniture, you'd have hundreds to thousands of players buying Cheap Furniture, and some might even upgrade later to okay furniture.

    This isn't to replace Luxury or Prime Housing and Items.

    This is to open a Market for the smaller stuff you wouldn't be caught dead putting into a 3K Sanctuary Cove Apartment.

    Let me put it this way... those guys are say.... Bill Gates in this Universe. I'm talking about Cheap Beer, you're talking about Merlot from the 1200's. I'm talking all us Pizza Delivery Guys and College Students out here trying to make a PEC now and then, you're talking about guys with Bank Rolls.

    We have a TON of Player Base that will NEVER have 3K for an Apartment, but would spend 10 PED here and 30 PED there to fill up there very small Box with some creature comforts, invite a small 'team' of Friends in, and have a good time.

    Which allows Hunters and Miners to Sell those Low Resources to be used in Production of these Finished Products that Crafters make for this new wave of people now looking for Furniture.

    The people buying these Apartments likely wouldn't step foot in one of the 'boxes' if you paid them to, but right now the ONLY people that can even USE Furniture are the ones that pay Thousands for Apartments/Shops... and who obviously don't want Crappy Furniture in their place.

    I'm talking about taking Thousands of Homeless Arkadians, and turning them into Consumers of Housing Goods by giving them a very limited space to call their own.
     
  8. MaxHecWalker

    MaxHecWalker Active Member

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    I take it the OP means small micro-apartments like these:




    Each estate currently has a limitation on the number of items and the cost to increase it I'm told is rather high for what you get.
    Therefore estates are used in many different ways like: to store terminals & storage containers, or as a place to show off a few items that maybe someone might PM to buy, or just an empty place because the owners simply got the place to sell it later on.

    If there's a monthly rent, how many months can you pay in advance?
    Obviously for super small apts., the number of displayable items will be very low & I'll guess a single digit number.
    MA would probably disallow selling items in such small dwellings and limit the number of avatars to 1 or 2 at a time.

    The free apt. sounds nice but there's too many new players that try EU for a day or a week and never log on again.
    Even a bunch of windowless avatar-sized closets that people could rent from MA would change estate values to some extent.
    I don't see how MA could do it without estate values being affected or the existing players feeling like their estate values are affected...

    I'm not saying the idea isn't without merit or that it should not be attempted, or that I'm not interested myself...
    But it's a minefield issue that would take a lot of planning and a lot of talking with other players.
     
  9. AdeW

    AdeW Active Member

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    I had an apartment on Calypso way back - nice view, decent layout, good storage and did some 'entertaining' with a good, now sadly no longer in PE, friend (T'aldora, where are you girl?)

    Also attended some damn good parties - remember one particular party for the Soc I was in at the time (Federation of Free Wanderers). Me and Donald (another old-timer) sitting chatting whilst the 'youg'uns' boogied on down around us. Pretty lights, lots of people, good times.

    Some good memories associated with apartments. Just sad my old friends have gone.
     
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  10. SallyBridges

    SallyBridges Adviser Arkadia Adviser

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    CND Appartments - before they added storage to CND / FOMA appartments there sales were in the region of 1k+ now you can pick up a CND appartment for around 300 - 600 peds depending on the time of year. ( they look quite box like as well ) also when CND first opppend the owner of the resort had highest single loot win appartment events in game.

    MA isnt run to make a profit - on paper its good for them if your running at an accounting loss you dont have to pay taxes and share holder dividends etc etc .

    Not sure if you have seen the following video - but its quite interesting - whats even more interesting is if the actually get to impliment the banking setup that they talked about around 2005 - a bit before the 2008 world baking liquidity crisis but they more or less have all the paperwork and pre approved banking licenses around.



    David Simmons part is around 23:00

    You will also find EU Is an older player base just due to the bankrolls and deposits required hence why you also get world record setting virtual items. I am not sure I have met 1000's of Arkadians wanting a shoe box ! yes there are people wanting estates and happy to pay the prices for estates.

    MA would also need TO DO a Lot of work in the backend infastructure to get more and more estate ( shoe box size ) or anything working and also supporting more and more players - they did an upgrade a while a go - when they had everything max setup on there backend it was a compleate different expirience to the one you see now ( spawning vehicles used to have lots of tiny pixels do it - you now have blocky pixels in big blocks ) - they are aware its a niche market and the game isnt cheep to play.

    Arkadia Studios fought to remove ESTATE Rents - they were ingame on most planets ( I Belive Next Island Still Charge ) where you used to pay monthly appartment rental ontop of the estate - I am now thankfull you dont have to pay a monthly fee.

    If theres a group of you playing and you all save 10 ped a month for 12 months and times that by 10 players - even your own soc then you could soon get a soc shared piece of real estate to party in.

    Its Almost Like Comparing a Quad Wing Equiss to a Quad and saying hey MA I cant afford that but its cool and I want to warp in space can i have that for cheep as then you will get a lot more players come in ! Ma set the price at $5k for a reason - Again appartment prices are dictated by players wanting them and they reach the values for that said reason.

    Previosly people have grinded / traded / saved up depo's and then purchased appartments - yes it takes time - but people have done it also poepl have asked for the RL Birthday stuff to be Virtual Assets If you want something desperatly enough then you will persevear or find a way to get it. EU isnt a Sprint its a Multi Marathon .

    Also Balancing of Blue prints and other things would need to change as well - If you own an estate try and find a bed ! yes there there but there not redily available .

    Yes There are some Interesting Future Game Titles - that Might mean MA pull there finger out and react - Its certainly going to be interesting times over the next couple of years. Even with these I will still be around ;)

    Some of the best parties i have had have been on CND when it was CND and Live DJ's party's after a hunting event with eveyone using every dance and emote available ;) Also ASK around and see if you can get access for you / your friends to have access to an estate you never know what might happen.
     
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    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  11. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Good reply. Let me address a few things here.

    1. Yes, the apartments would be used however the player saw fit. Some would make this 'home' with a Bedroom. Some would make this the Hang Out, like a living Room. Others would just use the space to show off some neat Loots. Some might use it as a vendor, while others might use it as a shop (like Beauty Shop). It's all up to the Owner.

    2. There COULD be an Upkeep, but I'd want it small. I want this to be something ANY player can get into and keep. There is a major reason for that. OWNING something creates an emotional attachment. A good majority of Players would become emotionally invested in the game, and start to add things as they could to make their place unique and expressive of themselves.

    At first we would start to slowly be able to operate the Furniture Market, as now Low End Furniture would be in some demand. No owner of a 3.5K Sanctuary Apartment would be caught dead with Low End Furniture... and we understand that. Which means, since there is no Middle or Low Income Housing that Low Quality Furniture (and Mid Quality for that matter) has no place.

    Also, it gives Arkadia an Advantage. Of course, you need to be a Citizen, so either Born here or earning it via Quests. So more Players born of other planets coming here and doing Arkadian Quests, buying at Arkadian Shops... all to live in an Arkadian 'Studio Apartment'.

    It could very well be a boon for every Market. So again, if there were ANY upkeep, I would like it to be a Small Upkeep (or in the AUG, where that Upkeep would go to the AUG Loot Pool, and taxed for the AUDs).

    3. There would absolutely be limitations. Basically it is big enough to be 'One Room', so if you put a Bed in there don't expect a Couch and Table to fit for a Living Room. But the idea of 'Windowless' Cubes is two-fold. (1) It makes it very easy to 'instance' these, so we don't need the Physical Rooms actually on Arkadia and (2) it allows for a Floor, Ceiling, 4 Walls and 1 Door to 'Customize'. Some of this Customizing would be by Crafters (Colors/Textures) while others would be Unique Items bought in Cash on the EU Store (Like the Starter Packs, these Items would not be Tradable). So you could, if the A-Team wanted to make them, buy a Virtual Window of any Arkadian Scene... but it would cost Real Cash (think a Plasma TV slapped on the wall showing a nice scene). Or cheaper 'Posters' of things to put on the Walls.

    All of these Shop Specialty Items would go to help Arkadia directly, while still being perfectly optional. So you could own a mix of Cash-Direct Items that help the A-Team and Player Made Crafts that help Arkadian Crafters.

    4. Those same players that play a week or so and never log on again already have a Box... their Inventory and Storages. Those are kept for a Year +, before everything is converted to a TT PED Value (and then I think 6 to 12 months more before being 'absorbed' by MA). Same for the Studio Apartments. So I don't see that being a real problem.

    5. I still fail to see how this affects the Values of Apartments, even if these Studio Apartments are free. The guys paying 3K+ for these Apartments would do so even if you GAVE them the Free Box, because the Box isn't what they want. They want the Space, and the Location (and often times the Roof Top Access or View)... and being cramped in a small box would not suit these players that willing spend $300 USD to acquire an actual Apartment. It would very well be a Class thing.

    6. I'd also like to add that any Income made off these would be Taxed (going to Loot Pool or AUDs). So those placing all kind of Shopkeepers without having to buy a 'Legit Shop' would be Taxed... and I'd even suggest Taxed at a Higher Rate (as they didn't put up the PED to get an actual Store Property).

    Mainly I'm just looking for Long Term Solutions to solidifying Player Base in Arkadia while stimulating certain lesser used Markets (like Furniture and Clothing) and possible adding to more Taxable Income. Of course a Player never NEED to use it, but it would be there for those that did want to feel more deeply connected with the Game Experience.

    As always, thank you for a solid response.
     
  12. MaxHecWalker

    MaxHecWalker Active Member

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    I was on NI just 2 days ago and I can confirm they still do rentals. And only way to find out is try entering shop, if you get stuck in doorway then system chat will say rent is unpaid. :blackeye:

    Oh and the value isn't just what's on the deed atm, it's also the speculative sale value.
     
  13. SallyBridges

    SallyBridges Adviser Arkadia Adviser

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    All these items are potentially going to need HUGE amounts of development time which could be used to more cash rich effects - I can think of 1000's of people basically wanting to spend what ever it costs to get smuggler armour and smuggler items and these have been hinted at for a while ( 2 years + ) as and when ( if ) this chain comes in expect Arkadia to be FULL on busy.

    Also remember to do beauty / hairdressing services you need specilist items ( also when the cryengine upgrade happened ) mindark quite unfairly gave everyone a free retouch / change beauty proffessionals are around but are reasonably cheep ! but they had years of proffessional expirience and customers wiped out and skills that wernt cheep to gain more or less sat gathering dust due to this.

    I think you need to realise that ultimatly MA control everything - Previosly they attempted to do ingame advertisments you supposidly got more loot for watching adverts and things - advert screens ( plasmas in appartments ) but it was negligable and no decent adverts ever came in.

    Beauty - Cry engine - give everyone a free restart avatar - nerf beauty

    Explosive Blue Print - crafting Nerf buy nano cubes - craft explosives - dont bother buying matterials from any where else
    as examples I could go on I have been around long enough - but still hammering away and loving it you adabt

    PETS - removed when cry engine installed - recently come back

    CLD Estates - yeh think that was 2 years still not out and potentially comming in a vu soon

    Yes you present some nice ideas that potentially 1000 + players with smaller transactions smaller budgests is potentially more profitable per capita of player but per capita of player is more cost ( server estates / band width / support staff etc etc ) more transactions = bigger sql server that cost currently is been funded by long term players . Especially in a Real Cash Economy.

    The Existing player base is mainly and i say mainly loosly cash rich or they have been in game long enough to know what market works for trading and what market fails ( look at explosive blue print prices as an example ) . there are ways to make peds its finding and presenting the right oppertunities


    can I ask how long you are prepared to wait for these suggestions to possibly get implimented ?

    If there isnt a risk to mittigate dont exploit it and turn it in to an oppertunity ! there are better risks to Mittigate ! and more cash rich oppertunites to exploit .


    Arkadia Studios IS Proffitable - this has been stated by the A-Team ! ! ! !
     
  14. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Oh, I completely believe that the A-Team is Profitable. They seem to run things much better than MA does, and it shows.

    I'm not knocking the A-Team at all, if I didn't think they were serving up a better product I'd have just stayed in Calypso when I came back to the game.

    Also I am certain there is absolutely a line of 'RL Money Players' ready to line up and buy Smuggler Armor (just as they are ready to buy 3.5K Apartments). I don't doubt that at all. You are also correct that the Long Term Deposit Players practically build this game, sustain it.

    The only issue their is that Games require Growth, the Player Base has slowly Declined... because people will only stick around in a Money Sink until they see if they can make a return or not. Well, just like a Casino, MindArk isn't built on Winners... it's the Losers that pay the System. So we need more Players, who will stay with games longer and invest more if they have more things to get them Emotionally Invested in the game.

    For some people, that is sometimes something like a place to hang your hat on and call your own. Look at the Resurgence of WoW with the Garrisons. So many 'dead' players came back, just for that. Just for a place they can call their own, with all the little perks that come with it.

    Sometimes it's that little difference that turns a guy from 'walking away after $20.00' to investing more and staying long term... even if it's just $10.00 a month. It's those interesting features that get them talking to other Gamers and drawing them in.

    You will only get so many people to join because it's a 'Real Money Economy'... you need to bring in Players because it's a very good MMO with some Unique Opportunities and Great Communities. The game has been around about a Decade now... we've pulled in just about all the "You can be NeverDie and get a 1 Billion USD Moon all your own!" crowd that we can at this point.

    Now, to surge forward, we need to get the Hard Core MMO Players here, that don't care that it's a Real Money Economy. Heck, I've seen WoW Guild Leaders drop THOUSANDS of dollars into WoW in a Month... knowing they will NEVER get a red cent of that back. We package this as a Legit MMO for Hard Core Fans, you'll get a fan base that WILL spend more money and not worry if it doesn't come flooding back to them on a Global. Because that's what they ALREADY do on the games that they currently play.

    So yeah, I think something like having Small Housing for All Players would be something (along with Society Head Quarters) that guys like that would get into, and invest in. Which would promote GROWTH in the Game overall.

    Now, you DO bring up one really good point. All the internal Bandwidth, having to do more Updates... but aren't these issues that Successful MMO's already are faced with, and over come?
     
  15. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    You claim that player numbers are declining. I dont believe thats the case at all.
     
  16. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Cash Received from Customers continues to drop Yearly.

    There are a few reasons this could be.

    The average Player decides to spend less in this Year than the Previous Year. This is possible. So in this scenario the Player Base is simply spending less. Now, if we are Stagnate or Adding Players... then this means that likely the Big Fish are seriously curbing their Spending, or leaving. I have been told some Vets with Bank Roll have already left, unhappy with some changes that were made. I don't have specifics on that, so it's pure here-say to me at this point.

    Or, the Average Player continues to Pay what he has... but now there are less Average Players (meaning we are losing Player Base).

    Cash Received from Customers dropped by 9M ESK. Just so happens that Net Profit was a Loss of 9M ESK as well for 2013.

    Generally People reach a comfort zone of spending with a game, so Average Spending tends to be stable. Major Market issues may cause a change, however.

    So basically, looking over the Financial Reports of Mind Ark suggests to me that we are losing Player Base pretty much Yearly, which is continuing to affect the Profit/Loss.

    There is some good to note: They seem to be paying down the principle of the Loan, as the Yearly going to that was cut by about 90K. Also, they are Cash-Flow Positive as well. So no one has to worry if they are going to fold up over night, the situation is not so dire yet.

    So either we are losing Player Base, the Average Player is spending Less, or a combination of both. None of which are good.
     
  17. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Active player numbers on arkadia are growing. This based on feedback from Dave as well as the ongoing release of more apartments and shops, prereq for that being growth in active player numbers.
    Interesting analysis of financials though.
     
  18. San

    San Well-Known Member

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    Whenever I feel I get less return for my deposit than the time before, it does not make me deposit more to play longer. It makes me hold back and wait until it gets better again. I don't expect to profit, just to get a decent stretch of entertainment for my money. Same with every other business, e.g. a restaurant starting out with good value but then cutting back quality to increase their margin, they've seen me for the last time. There won't be another Entropia popping up around the corner every week, so it's not quite the same, but MA will get less rather than more money out of people if they make them feel ripped off. We seem to be in such a phase now, judging also by this thread.
     
  19. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    On Arkadia, when I reference Losing Player Base I mean in the Universe. Which is why I used Mind Arks numbers, not Arkadias (that, and I haven't even looked for the A-Teams Financials).

    Remember, if MA collapses that is all that matters... no one else will be able to operate without the platform. So we must ALSO be concerned with the overall health of MindArk.

    Since MA is slowing and/or losing, that strongly suggest Calypso is losing Player Base... and seems to be losing it faster than Arkadia is gaining it.
     
  20. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Precisely my point.

    We need more Quality in the game, things that will help Sustain Players Long Term by making the EXPERIENCE more enjoyable. It is the main area where those other MMO's whip our tails.

    We need to be able to immerse our players in this Virtual Reality we have here, engage them. Get something they will EMOTIONALLY invest in.

    People spend Hundreds and Thousands on WoW... which is only $15 a Month... because they are emotionally invested. Some even go further, and buy Gold on-line from 3rd Parties... which is a risk and can get you banned... for a game that is only $15 a Month.

    In other words, people have NO PROBLEM paying more than the Monthly... if they are entertained. We have no Monthly... we also have the CHANCE of Gains... but we largely seem to have grown based on the 'Casino Model'. Hey guys, you might hit the Jack Pot! Come play! And it works, but only to an extent.

    We need to be able to pull players from EVE, from WoW, from Guild Wars. To do that, we have to be an equally Good MMO... with something unique to sway them.

    When we can do that... AND guys can show you there ATH... then we will Grow Long Term.

    You do that by Customization, Ownership and Community.
     

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