Observations about the business side of Entropia

I've been playing for a few months now (this time as I played once before). It interests me that a good majority of people must not be in the game to make profit at all for one thing. They let their goods go for such a low MU that it almost isn't worth selling it outside the TT in some cases such as when something sells for 101%. At times like that, I know that by selling to another player, I am really doing much more a favor for them then they are for me. And when getting a good MU, such as on carabok hides or whatnot, I get so few of them (admittedly accept once in a blue moon when I hit a mother load), that I'm investing plenty more in ammunition then I'm getting back. Even swunting doesn't seem very eco efficient.

Just basic calculations of what it costs me to make something or create a service when compared to the rates others are charging has shown me that they are trying to recover some of their costs and keep playing, but aren't in it for profit. Plus, when you first start doing something, you will have to invest a great deal in it in order for it to even come close to being profitable if it ever does. You have to take the risk that you can spend all this money on learning a trade and skilling up, and realize that you still aren't guaranteed to make anything from it in the end. As a matter of fact, your chances of failure are much greater than success, and success in many ways depends in some cases on a lot of blind luck verses planning on your part.

I've already probably invested close to $100 ingame. That really seems like quite a bit probably to most players coming in, but if you don't invest you will take forever to get anywhere if you ever do. I'm not saying non-depositing can't be done. I'm saying I certainly don't have the patience, and get bored doing tedious repetitive tasks in order to try and make a couple of PED. It makes me wonder if even in value for a game I'm not better off to look elsewhere. It seems to me that if I were to play something that required a set amount each month for at least an even chance compared to people coming in at the same time as me, perhaps where my achievements are measured by my advancement ingame instead of losing money, it would improve my enjoyment of the game.

I know some will disagree with me, and that's OK if they want to. I know some seasoned veterans are probably more adept at success with better skills and such, but I am having to make a decision as to how much I'm really willing to invest in Entropia before I actually begin to get anywhere or how long I'm willing to do the same thing over and over again. I mean what fun is that? Consider especially that of the attempts to successfully do that task (sweating) I fail more often then I succeed, and that success is a simple matter of luck of the draw.

I think it costs considerably more to develop a skill then many are letting on considering what I've already spent and how low my skill levels are. I just can't afford to spend that kind of money just for the game to become interesting, and I doubt that many new people coming in are planning on investing that kind of capital either. Really, unless you are ready to invest in real estate (and I doubt apartments will do it I mean land), you probably stand a better chance of making something from collecting aluminum cans and cashing them in, and it's just about as fun as sweating.

Here is a clue: My mentor told me he has invested $1500 over his time playing which to be honest I don't know how many years that's been, and he said that he is just recently making enough to sustain play. Hooking up with a society and going on hunts kind of kills the idea that you can get by just depositing $10 or $15 a month and still play. At that rate, you won't have money for the ammunition to go with them anywhere. So if you really want to do much co-op playing, it will quickly get too expensive.

For me, if I play and when I play, it is only occasionally and not with the hope of making anything, and I think new players should realize that when starting to play. Disagree if you want. All I can base this on is what I have learned over the past few months playing. I can't help but think it is the new players coming in that keep the game going. They are the ones that have nothing and need everything. They drive the economy, and as long as other players are willing to sell out below market value, you have no chance of making enough possibly to even keep playing at first. It is gonna cost you. You can do it without depositing, but you won't enjoy it.

 

I think there is some truth to what your saying, but I think there are some misconceptions as well that come from a lack of experience or the right teachers.

To start off with,
Yes it can be expensive to play, especially if you do not do your research.
Yes it can be VERY expensive to reach the skill levels of the top players. (ive been playing 5.5years and am fairly well known but am only mid lvl which is likely just a fraction of the cost put into the top avatars)

But.....
While that is true, I also don't understand the need to do that to enjoy the game and the challenges it presents.

I love the concept that it is a harsh environment that is nearly impossible to survive in.
I take pride in the successes I have had in those conditions knowing the difficulties I faced and surpassed.

There are strategic and economic decisions you can make at every level of play rather it be a fresh OJ sweating or a decked out Uber with 300+hp and top gear, at each level you can do things to advance yourself both in terms of skill and gear as well as economically, but also at each level you can be hurt so economically that you are faced with the decision of sacrificing your gear and skills to survive.

How do you face those challenges?
How do you react to success?
How do you react to failure?

I guarantee that there isn't a top player in the game who hasn't failed miserably at some stage or another.... what allowed them to continue on to greatness where others were crippled by the exact same circumstances?

Now for the biggest misconception from your post.

When my wife and I started playing we had a ton of fun with the swunt teams at neas place on ambu.
A team of 12 new players with tt weapons can kill a large variety of creatures in a fairly economical manner while having a ton of fun for cheap.
Doing this each person can have an hours worth of fun for 10ped and since it is economical hunting they will loose an average of 1ped.
For your 15$ a month that allows you 150hours of game co-op game play which works out to about 5hours per day.

Now you may say there is no such activities available for you to join right now.
THEN ORGANIZE IT YOURSELF AND HELP OUT THE OTHER PLAYERS WHO ARE IN THE SAME SHOES AS YOU!!!!!
Oh... I forgot to mention that even though gaining sweat is not the goal when doing this, you still get it (and in a social fun manner) and it can be sold to prolong your 15 dollars even further.

If you are a new player, don't try keeping up with mid lvl players in teams, thats crazy and of course you will loose peds. Play like your budget and skills dictate and you can do well and have alot of fun.

I would like to leave you with some lite reading that may help some understand how to survive in these harsh environments,

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Little_Engine_That_Could.html?id=ZufFjiD8H7oC

gl and have fun

narfi

 

Sounds a lot like RL!

 

I think this is great advice, and I think anyone who is upset that they can't find some event or support for whatever they'd like to do should strongly consider this before looking to others.

However, as another Noob (who might be interested in trying to work on organizing something like this), I have some questions that would make organizing something much easier:
- What weapons should we use? Currently I'm using a Manta K-1 ... should folks use a ranged weapon, should they use a higher/lower damage weapon?
- What armor should we wear? Currently I don't wear armor for Swunting by myself against Caraboks ... will that still work against something larger? And if we should be wearing armor, what kind (I think right now I've just got the free trainee armor ... since I don't wear it for anything, I haven't worried about finding anything different)?
- What critters should we go after? I suspect Carabok's aren't a good choice ... but what is? And any suggestions for where they are (or where a good place would be, considering things like revival points, resupply, teleportation, etc)?
- When a group gets together, do we all target the same critter and then all start sweating until we've collected all the sweat and then all attack the critter until it's dead? Or do we need to use more tactics (spacing ourselves around the critter, sequence the sweats/attacks in some way, ???)?
- Is there a Guide or similar for folks who have never organized a Sweating Circle before? I've seen comments about joining one, but they always seem to assume someone within the Circle knows what they are doing and the Noob can follow someone or ask questions. If we're all Noobs, it's harder to figure it all out (although admittedly those who first developed the technique needed to do that ... but I'm lazy and I'd prefer to learn from those who went before me ).

 

Best guide is pratice. Go to Quary outppost and join sweaters. They sweat from joung to guardian nusul. Even if you dont have ammo for shooting you as a newcomer will still gain a lot of defence and general skills just by sweating. If someone decide to do team for swunt they usualy use basic weapon from terminal trade, no amps, no enhancesr. No Armor - revival is near and dieing dont cost nothing except time and many times there is healer skilling and healing all group.

 

I think you miss part of the question Dan ... the idea is that if a Noob wants to participate in something like a Sweat Circle but there aren't any, then the Noob should help the community by organizing one. But that also means that the Noob can't learn by joining sweaters. I suppose someone could answer the question by saying "There are always folks sweating" ... but if that's the case, maybe you should back it up by pointing out exactly where they are (since some folks apparently aren't finding them ... I know I didn't see any at the Quarry when I was on last night).

However the other info you included is more helpful ... don't use armor, use any basic weapons, don't use amps, start somewhere near the Quarry and look for Joung or Guardian Nusul.

Another question I hadn't thought of earlier ... how many folks need to group up? I'm guessing if there's only one or two sweaters, we'd have to go after significantly different targets than if there were 20-30 sweaters.

Also, do all of the Sweaters join the same Team (can you even have that many folks on one team), or does the group break up into different teams, or does everyone just run "solo" (even though everyone is sweating ... and eventually killing ... the same targets).

 

You'll often find swunt teams near the Nusul at Celeste Outpost. You don't need to be in a formal team to cooperate with others in sweating or swunting as long as it is clear who is going to kill the mob when it is dry.

 

First thing I would say to all my fellow noobs....find a GOOD MENTOR!

Alot of these questions and the guidance you need are taken care of right there.

Now, to address some things...

1) Sweat Selling

The going rate on sweat is 1.5ped to 2.5 ped per 1000 sweat.

Realistically, 1.6 to 1.8 can easily be found (more or less).

You get sweat by group sweating or solo sweating. The places to "group" sweat (or sweat hunt or swunt) are as follows:

Caly: Nea's Place, OLA #42
Ark: Celeste Outpost

Solo sweating is done pretty much where ever. But my recommendation is as follows:

Caly: Camp Icarus, Swamp Camps, Port Atlantis (Target Puny or Snagglesnots)
Ark: Quarry or any Firebase Academy (Carabok Puny or Gallards)

A Puny will have roughly 10 sweat as will a Carabok puny. Gallards and Snagglesnot have 15 sweat I believe. Once you get that off them, they are "dry" and you can either pull them to a turret (and you get no loot) or kill them yourself (and you get loot).

NOTE: If you shoot the critter and get it to 1 HP and then a turret kills it or it drowns in water you get NO LOOT.

Sweating is the only way in game to get "free" ped and it will also give you skills include a very valuable one...evade. Don't discount it.

DO NOT USE ARMOR WHEN SWEATING....EVER....

You don't lose anything if you die and armor decays when it gets hit and that means you are losing PED. Don't wear armor when sweating.

When you are doing a GROUP sweating run, chat with the people, form the circle and DON'T RUN AROUND when the mob smacks you. Even if you die, it won't be that big a deal as you will be close to the mob and can run back or heal and run back. Use this time to get another valuable thing...contacts...this is a SOCIAL GAME after all.

When hunting, use a weapon that is very ECO (Economical)...I would suggest the following ones...

SI Scorpion, SI HK110, SI Combat Knife.

This is not to say the TT weapons on Ark and Caly are bad, just that these TT ones from Cyrene are better.

Get a Herb Box or an SI Heart for your FAP once you get some skill up. The SI Heart is not really Eco till your skill is up a bit but once it is, its the most eco friendly FAP around for most. (FAP- First Aid Pack fyi)

When you group around a mob with alot of HP and thus, alot of sweat, the mob will hit different people so that the effect is that it "moves" from one person to another before it kills you (hopefully) and this will allow you more sweat per death. You can also get alot more sweat from the bigger mob and because the mob is not targeting you all the time, you won't get interrupted as much and thus, get more sweat faster.

You should also expect to get back only a 30-90% return on your hunts unless you get lucky. There is a built in 10% loss more or less by design because MA and the planet partners have to make money some how. The sweating gets a little of that back but remember, sweat is bought by other players rather then the TT so its not really going to cover that loss economy wise.

<removed>

But the truth is this...the most effecting, best way to get PED in the game is to deposit...plain and simple.

A real life minimum wage job in the US will get you about 65-70 ped per hour and there just aren't alot of ways to match that in game. None that I know of even.

But if you look at the game as just that...a game...an entertainment expense...you would be hard pressed to find other such entertainment for the price you pay here provided you budget and don't go nuts.

 

Sorry Boegs i named outpost wrong, i thinked on Celeste Quary outpost - where nusul are (aprox coord 27200,10950) there are almost always sweat group on and they ocasionaly do swunt. Reason to form circle with group of sweaters is also to share damage. Mob attack randomly and you have time to regenerate HP between two attacks. One or two sweaters can do well if they use noob armor like pixie or similar without being killed but that cost so solution is to make group or do swunt solo on smaller mobs carabok or gallard - thats less relaxing and you miss part of sweating wich is to socialise. * About how big shud be - hard to say - it depend mostly on how big mob ppl sweat - so 30 pp can sweat ambulomax or proteron on Caly but to sweat here an nusul circle of 30 ppl wud be too big and nusul wud move and run too much making you loose target offten.

 

I think the point of what I was trying to say was lost somewhere. I wasn't saying anywhere in my post that it was difficult to find people to swunt or hunt. I have to make a decision as to whether or not I'm willing to invest the kind of capital I believe you would need to do much other than swunting for a very long time.

I didn't say you would never develop the skills and never begin to profit. I asked myself if it was worth the cost, and I just can't justify it. It's not about being willing to overcome challenges. It's about being willing to spend what it costs to overcome challenges. I didn't say the game wasn't fun. I said sweating is about as fun as collecting aluminum cans. Other parts of the game are quite enjoyable if you can afford to do them without intending to recover your cost.

I've looked for a way to make enough to recover my costs in game and from what I can see, I will have to invest quite a bit before I reach that plateau. It's simple math. It's expenditures verses income. When you are spending more than you are making well what do you expect. From what I see, it is going to take a very long time before a new person begins to make more than they spend.

Not to mention, we don't have the game figured out. We don't have the experience or understand how it's done. And we shouldn't be expected to. A mentor can only take you so far. Falling and getting back up, the school of hard knocks, call it what you will is the way you are going to learn. You just can't learn this stuff by reading an introduction to Entropia and think you can get on here and do it. You will have to continually try and fail for a very long time before you no longer fail as much. My bet is you still fail more than you would like to.

 

There are other equally cheap and economical things you can do besides swunting.
Rookie mining+gathering stones
Finding a low lvl cheap per click component that is in demand. (havent researched lately, but sheet metal used to be one of those, welding wire is one right now)
Gathering Oil or beer from places that spawn it. (does arks oil rig work yet?)
Trading
Medic for tips
etc.....

You can do all of those without depositing. You just have to be careful with how you approach them.

Skills do not equil profit!!!
Skills equil the ability to magnify the consequences of your decisions rather they be bad or good.
Say you spend 10ped an hour now and loose 5.
If you have the skills to spend 1000ped an hour you would loose 500. (I went for a hunt the other day and decayed 1000ped off my blade and another 100ped off my armor and fap. I got 450ped of loot back.)
Say you spend 10ped an hour and profit 3.
If you have the skills to spend 1000ped an hour you would profit 300. (on similar hunts i have come back with 1500ped of loot including high markup items)

Skills give you more options, but when it comes down to it the mechanics are the same. It is how you approach the activities at EVERY level that will make you a success or a failure.

It cost nothing, you can do it with no RL money invested, you just have to be willing to approach it the right way. (and of course I understand that way is not for everyone. But If I had been unable to play for free and enjoy success for my first 6 months without depositing, then I never would have become a regular depositor)

Then find the things you do enjoy and do the free/cheap options there instead. Sweating is just an option, you dont HAVE to do it.

Unless you hit a jackpot you will never make more than you spend. The devs need their paychecks after all and its only fair.
To succeed at this game, you have to realize this, and understand how to win while loosing.
The trick is to realize any economic success you have in this game MUST come at the cost of other players.
The easiest way to do this is through services.(including trading)
The next easiest way is through tedious 'free' activities such as sweating and gathering.
The next easiest way is through mining.
One of the hardest ways is through hunting for markup.
Possibly the hardest way is to craft items for markup.

And that is why you should not deposit for the first weeks/months of playing. That is why you should work to struggle through the game learning those mistakes for free instead of wanting to magnify them 1000x by putting in real cash.

Once you have played for a few months and have learned the mechanics of the game, not just from what people have told you but by experiencing them yourself and testing what they have told you. Then you can trust to increase your level of play and make those increases gradual enough that you can still trip without falling all the way back to the bottom.

 

i think your questions can only be answered by yourself.
what is your game?

there are alot activities you can do in dependency on what you want to reach in what time.
what is your game?

whatever you do if you want to play it successful in entropia within the regular systems you will need a good amount of liquid to roll.
every system inside is designed to have effect on using the exponential function.

-dont hunt caraboks under 2k ped ammo
-dont do hunting trips if you dont bring 3-4 hours of time with you
-prepare before and observe while doing (how much cost a mob kill and the loot message shows what you got, you will learn to estimate where you are at any time of the hunt without using a calculator or excels sheet or TT terminal )
-never forget to question yourself if something doesnt work from the start
-never forget to question the interest of others
-if you need security take your time to study. knowledge brings security as you will be able to estimate roundabout what will happen if you act in a certain way and you will learn about options you have. if you dont know your options you are likely to keep doing what you think must work even if it doesnt.
- nobody asks you to invent the wheel of entropia there are alot experienced persons and they all share a huge amount of that everywhere you are and because of that you wont need to try and fail all over that much because alot persons tried and failed and share already what should not be done
- the most experienced try and fail from time to time. its the risk of seeking trends.
- if you log in and have the feeling to be under preasure tell yourself the word "stop" and ask the questions you got in that situation. then study again and check if you play with the budget you really can play with or if you are already playing on a budget you cant allow yourself to loose in the worst case.

-make yourself a plan. where are you now, what do you have, where do you want to be and what do you want to have someday.
- follow it and always question it again to change it at the right time.

-patience is a friend sometimes we have to do things we dont really want to to reach something we wanted.


and if everything messes up and you think that i am completely wrong you can still always blame mindark

 

It's the challenge.

I've only been in game for 5 days. Before I started I read the forums to gather information about the game. I learned the game takes time and a lot of a patience. Trying to go to fast will cost you money. I plan to deposit so I can break up the monotony of sweating and swunting with mining runs and to be able to build stacks to trade/sell. I know it's going to be a challenge and that's the best part of the game for me. If it wasn't, I'd play something else. Everyone has to decide why they play and how they play. Find a good mentor, ask questions, listen to the other players, and read the forums for info. Then figure out why and how you want to play. I play for the challenge, not the possibility of a big payout at some point in time. Currently sweating(solo and group) at celeste outpost. Look for me in game, and have fun whichever you choose.

 

I think the key is to enjoy the game whatever you are doing, the easiest way to ruin the experience is to even entertain the idea of doing more than break even.
Games like WOW will charge you a subscription fee to play with a 100% loss, at least if you decide to leave Entropia in a few years the opportunity to sell up and chip out and regain some of the cash invested is rare in online gaming.

Its all about the slow build, complete the Iron missions and get extra skills, speak to mother ship owners and find out about repairs, join a helpful society. Some of must fun I've had in this game has been free( exploring new places with friends, taking people off the guest list of your heli over a lake , finding out that a female avatar is actually a female!)

The quickest way to ruin your enjoyment is to pile cash in and expect something back, done it, or to ask the question " How do i make a profit?"

 

I did get this from your post and tried to offer ways to "soften" the learning curve loss that can be quite long (and never ending for some).

TBH...if you are wanting to turn a profit in EU....odds are you never will.

If you want to reach a point where PED expended = PED earned....again, odds are you never will. Not over the long haul anyway.

EU is a business, plain and simple. They don't have a monthly fee that guarantees them a set amount of money per player coming in so the Planet Partners and MA have it set up where there are specific things that feed their coffers to pay for a person to answer support tickets, develop new things...etc.

In the case of skills, when you "chip out" your skills, there is a 10% "hit" off the value of the skill. For example, if you have 100ped in skill you can chip out...when you pull this out of your avatar, 90ped comes out, not 100ped. There is the 2ped landing fee on a planet, 7 ped TP fee from a space station...etc...

And hunts be it for mining things or mobs or created items..can truly suck like a 60-80% loss of peds just like you could get a 120-180% return. But more then likely you will get the 60-80% return rate which means, by default, you need a 20-40% Mark Up to break even and very few things have that kind of mark up.

So, to your point, you are correct that it will take a long time to ever get to the "break even" point in EU.

But as I said in MY point, that really isn't the point of playing EU. Just like you will never get to the "break even" point of going to a movie, playing Putt Putt Golf, going to a sporting event, hunting, fishing, even watching TV or renting a movie...you are not going to turn a profit or break even doing anything that is "entertainment" for the most part with very few and rare exceptions.

This is why we work (most of us) so that we have money to buy things we want or need. heh

 

I started on caly, i left for arkadia, I made ped whitout depositing, i saw that i didnt have enuff ped for my hunting cycles i deposited 50$ total... and i am at about 2k ped and going up... and i am having alot of fun...

 

Since I didn't see a specific answer to your answer about whether you should use Melee or Ranged for a Team swunt, I will share my personal experience on this matter and you can make the choice for yourself...

1) Melee weapons require you to be up close and personal.
2) When the mob aggros someone else, you have to run around after it, not scoring damage while in transit
3) Avatars are not transparent - so you can literally block someone else's shots and deny them the ability to shoot at a monster if you're in the way.
4) If you're in a PVP Area (not necessarily lootable, just PVP) the other party members shots won't evaporate when they reach you - you will take damage from team mates.
5) If you have a range advantage, monsters do less effective damage over the course of a fight if they are switching aggro targets as they have to move between victims instead of turning and hitting.

So in general, my recommendations are:
A) Either hunt all melee, or all ranged, but do not take a team with mixed weapons.
B) for lower level players looking to hunt creatures as efficiently as possible (rather than getting as much skill gain as possible from any given mob) ranged weapons would allow an easy switch from sweating tool to damaging attacks, without anyone having to run around, change position, etc. So I'd be suggesting ranged weapons.

I'd also like to say that I agree with Alex Solo and think he has a very very valid point:
you should set your own goals and plans in EU, and make your own milestones and targets (however small or humble).

For instance: I graduated my discipleship without depositing, by sweating and selling sweat and repairing my TT shortblade, and killing small creatures... It took me almost 2.5 years I think, and it's obviously not something most people would want to repeat or even consider doing... But it was a target and milestone I set for myself, and I worked at it - so the advice is: set yourself milestones, and mini-milestones, and work on them.
In EU, progess is it's own reward.

 

Hi,

As a long time swords maiden I'm signing here. This guy know what he talks about!

Some other ideas to the topic:

If you think about making profit in this game, drop it! Now, immediately, don't look back! Wrong choice.
Flipping paddies at your friendly neighborhood McBurger will earn you ways more profit per hour than you ever could expect in EU.
Very few of us are logging off with constant profit, and this is usually not even worth the value of the current used by your computer during playing. Imagine bitcoin mining with a low level gfx card - exactly this is "eco playing" in EU, as long as you don't hit the jackpot.
Where should the money come from? It always has to come from a less lucky participant, and quite often this will be you. Right, YOU!

All that counts is skills. You'll get a maximum average return of about 90% TT of the money you spent, this can be considered as proven. Since nearly all common loot has very low MU this is a zero-sum game at best.
The only part in this formula that is to be expected to yield noticeable MU's is - right, the skills you get. Some are worth more than others, read the wiki.
So getting max. skill gains is a good decision, right?
Again, a jackpot can change this all. But you'll not get showered with those.

Money breeds money. Yes, having invested a nice sum (and used it wisely) makes the game ways more fun in an instant. With even middle skills and gear your chances to reach these magic 90% are ways higher, and you'll have ways more fun playing. I know that there's ppl that skilled up w/o ever depositing, but that's a way plastered with thorn bushes, with slimy toads as all food available ...
Again, a jackpot can change this all. But you'll not get showered with those.

Sweating sucks now, better not even start it! OK, to learn the basics ("How does chat work?", "How do I move?") it's okay, as well as to make some initial friends. But the skill gains are minuscule, and the value earned is close to zero, as well. Lost time, IMHO.
There was days when sweating was less mind-numbing and more profitable, but these good old days (tm) are gone. These was times when we had a lot of players at any given time, when the main trade posts was so crowded that we had a constant slide show there, and when selling even a few animal hides was done within a few minutes. Good old days (tm) *) ...

Understand that this is only my 2 PEC. Your mileage may vary.

But I'm in game for nearly 7 years now, my withdrawal value is nearly 2x of all of my deposits, and I haven't deposited anymore since about 2 years. To be honest, I'm playing quite sparsely meanwhile, the old spirit of the game has gone, and it has become more and more quite a slot machine. With better chances the more you risk. IMHO.

Hope I got not too far OT ...

Have fun!

 

Well I'm making 3-15% profit on 25-35k of sales per month. Over the last 12 months my average profit per month in crafting is a little over 5% of sales. But I've invested a lot of peds and time and effort to get to that point. I'd wouldn't claim I am typical.

I really enjoy the challenge and I guess I would make the point that enjoyment should be your main objective, not the profit. My in game goals have changed over time I played but fun has always been part of the mix. Initially I focused on learning, exploring, and cheap fun. I would do team hunts with my soc, using opalos (Caly TT weapons) and lose 5 peds over 2 hours. 50 cents for 2 hours entertainment seems like a good deal to me. Then my focus shifted to skilling for around a year. At all times I tried to make sure I kept things enjoyable and while I didn't aim for profit I tried to play efficiently and sensibly.

It's only in the last 18 months or so that I have been actively pursuing making the game pay for itself by growing a crafting business and its taken me quite some time to get to the profit zone. Even so I still deposit frequently as I keep buying bps, upgrading my shops etc, and I am not sure if I will ever get to the point where I am in a position to withdraw, but that's ok because it's not really a goal at the moment. I would rather grow my in game investment. I want to open a shop on Caly. I'd really like to pick up one of the Arkadian LA's if I can get funds together at the right time.

So I guess my message to people is
1. Be clear on what your current goals are and realise your goals will change over time
2. If you want to make the game pay for itself, well yes you can do it. But successful businesses don't happen by accident and they usually don't start off with 0 capital. Yes you can start off sweating and parley that into some peds that you trade for profit or use in mining but to me that sounds difficult and boring.
3. There are far easier ways to make a living if the only reason you are playing is to make money.
4. Are you having fun? If not, then do something else! Change the way you play or perhaps find another way to spend your free time. Life is too short to do boring stuff if you don't have to.

 

You can profit from the game but it require A LOT of planning, research and cash flow.
I used to hunt quite a bit and the main thing you need to consider is markup. Your avg TT return would be around 85%, therefore you need to research on what to hunt to get the items to cover for your losses. The game is very involved and you really need to know as much as you can. Below are few things you need to consider:
1. What mob drop what items? what is the MU on those items and how fast can i sell it?
2. Mob HP, dmg, regen
3. My skills, armors, guns, fap (are they sufficient? how fast can i kill it? How eco am I?)
4. Set criteria (min time to hunt, max time to hunt, max losses before quit the session)
5. You need to adapt to the game.. See what sell good and go after it.
Example:
- I used to run a lot of ark instances during the 'Baron' event and sold arkoins for super high MU. I think i made few k ped profit at the time.
- hunted for angel armors from FisherKing
- hunted for Output Amp when it was high
- hunted high maturity otorogi and riptor for weapons.. etc etc

I was able to break-even for most of my planned sessions. You may be able to make some small profit but dont plan on it.

If you want real profit then you may want to look into crafting, trading, investment or running a business.
All of these activities required large sum of money and very low chance of success. So once again, it's back to your knowledge, research and planning.

The profit is out there, you just have to look for it. eg.. traders, order camper, weap camper, below MU camper, 100% MU camper, bp camper.. etc etc.
I myself make a small profit from crafting BUT only from learning many mistakes that costed me a lot throughout the last year.

(dont be afraid to ask people if you dont understand or want to learn about something)

Have fun with the game, best of luck.