Playing EU on a low budget - possible or not - a math exercise

Hyellow!

As Nietzsche said on one of his quote "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.", I really don't believe either that there's a right way to play EU. Some people (like me) can't really afford to deposit and play it (mostly) as a free-to-play game, and that's OK! Other people treat it like a RCE and make everything (trying to) make a profit and cash out, and again that's OK! Other people just burn large amounts of money for their personal enjoyment and thrill, and once again that's OK! Really, no matter how much or how less you do deposit and how you play the game, as long as you're happy with it, it's OK.

Still, most people (or at least most people I encountered myself over time) feel that a fair amount of money to spend on a game per month is the equivalent of a WOW subscription, which at this moment is $15. And that's why ever since I start playing, I was curious what this amount of money would offer you in EU; I tried to find info about it on forums, even asked a few people, but never found a definite answer, so now, that I have (a tiny bit of) experience, I will try to answer to this question myself (just in case there are other interested people like me).

So let's see what $15 would give us... going to entropiauniverse.com, logging in our account, select deposit and:

• Net PED amount to be transferred to your PED card: 144.10 PED.
• Transfer fee: 0.59 USD

So 144.10 PED...

You heard probably more than once that on any of the third main professions, the average returns (counting TT value, no MU) are ~90%... I will be a bit more conservative than what everyone says, and I will presume that this ~90% will include any MU we could eventually get on our loot... so... simple math... it means that when we will be completely lose out 144.10 PED, they will represent only (100%-90%=) 10% of our cycled money, so we would have cycled 10 times more money, so a total of 1441 PED we can cycle.

Don't believe it? Let's try it on a step-by-step base - so we start hunting with 144.10 PED, by the time we have used our 144.10 PED we should have 129.69 PED left (from loot selling). And here comes the fun part... the power of recycling and multiplication... we used 144.10 PED, but we still have 129.69 PED left... Now let's see how much we can keep cycling 'till we really exhaust our money: 144.10 => 129.69 => 116.72 => 105.05 => 94.54 => 85.09 => 76.58 => 68.92 => 62.03 => 55.83 => 50.24 => 45.22 => 40.70 => 36.63 => 32.97 => 29.67 => 26.70 => 24.03 => 21.63 => 19.47 => 17.52 => 15.77 => 14.19 => 12.77 => 11.49 => 10.34 => 9.31 => 8.38 => 7.54 => 6.79 => 6.11 => 5.50 => 4.95 => 4.45 => 4.01 => 3.61 => 3.25 => 2.92 => 2.63 => 2.37 => 2.13 => 1.92 => 1.73 => 1.55 => 1.40 => 1.26 => 1.13 => 1.02 => 0.92

Grand total? 1,432.75 PEDs we can cycle! And trust me, if I would have gone further cycling those PECs.

So... because of the power of cycling, our $15 deposit will allow us to cycle 1,441 PEDs per month, so like 47 PEDs per day (48.03 on months with 30 days, 46.48 on months with 31 days - that if you want to be pedantic).

Considering a moderately eco gun with a 2.8 dpp and no other expenses (as in armour, fap, etc), that should allow us to do 4,700 * 2.8 = 13,160 damage...

What would that mean?

- killing 1316 caraboks per day OR
- killing 1316 arkadian hornets per day OR
- killing 1096 monura males per day OR
- killing 1012 monura females per day OR
- killing 877 gallards per day OR
- killing 658 jori young per day OR
- killing 658 osteolok young per day OR
- killing 329 halix young per day OR
- killing 329 feran young per day OR
- killing 263 oro young per day OR
- killing 329 oaratan prospector thugs per day (for IFN mission) OR
- killing 263 oaratan prospector bandits per day (for IFN mission) OR
- killing 219 oaratan prospector thieves per day (for IFN mission)

OR

- dropping up to 940 probes per day (enmatter, TT finder)


OFC, if you want to step up and play with the big boys, those $15 won't last long, but if you're happy with staying eco and playing in the "minor league" as I like to call it, $15 per month is more than enough to keep you busy for a whole month (for example doing the daily IFN mission every day and still afford 1-2 extra hours of hunting/mining) and even allow you to get a bit crazy every now and then, without ever have to sweat.

So... really... why not give it a try?

Disclaimer: While the 90% return rate is a realistic one (in our case even conservative one since we included in it whatever MU we would be able to get for) and all the math is theoretically correct, practice will be slightly different (as in mobs will have regen and so on), plus fluctuations based on RNG are still possible (and even expected); also there will probably be some other small expenses every now and then. So please do take this post with a bit of salt; it was not meant to give exact values, but just to prove that one could still have a decent amount of fun, for a whole month, with the equivalent of a subscription fee of most other MMOs out there.

 

I made 25 USD last 2 years, does that count? :biggrin2:

 

hello,

i agree with numbers (it is easy math). But..

Last week i dropped 50 peds and got 50% return and i was also in a pvp zone (so its is supposed an area more rich in resource).

I have to say i'm a noob miner, but since this tread is aimed at noobs, i would advise that best way to dont loose fast your ped is hunt.

But mostly have fun and gl

 

The 90% return is a myth, debunked many times on PCF.

The 90% returns is/was a Desired Return Percentage by players in the earlier years of EU.

For the sake of discussion, you are better off playing Solitaire on your PC (windows) than paying for any game at all.

 

I think she brings up a valid point and it's also with 2.8 dpp. You can get better eco.

All the mobs she listed (except carabok and Gallardo imo) are fun to hunt. I really liked the halix mission

 

90% is still easy to achieve. Everyone running proper logs reach at least 90%, both in mining and hunting.

The problem on Arkadia seems to be a general lack of knowledge. As you see in OP Kiddo has the impression that 2.8 eco is decent. It is not, it is horrible.

The main issue for people overall seems to be hunting within their bankroll. The only shit runs I have managed were Kamaldon and Oratan lancers, both times I've failed to kill enough of them. Bad streaks do happen and needs to be ridden out. I'm now under the impression that roughly 500 kills needs to be done to expect a somewhat consistent return.

Edit: 121,000 ped cycled since April, even without my hofs I'd be above 90%. Sample size starting to get big enough to rule out luck.

 

Well, I wouldn't call it horrible, let's say there is a bit of room still to the upside. Remember also, this wasn't always so. New planet partners came up with ever more efficient gear to attract players.

Then it depends on the chosen weapon class. It also needs to be considered how much it costs you to fill the gap. The difference between 2.8 and 2.9 is roughly 3.5%, if we use just the relation of the two numbers as naive approximation. Depending on where you stand, equipment can cost quite a bit. Compare these 3.5% efficiency gain with potential interest from AUD/CLD's or other investments. You may have to regularly hunt beyond a pretty high threshold before it outweighs opportunity cost.

I just got me a gun which together with amp falls that eminent 0.1 dpp short of optimum (Ozpyn BP S1X3, Fi/ra/co Angst). It was the biggest ticket I spent in this game so far, around 1k ped together. Yes, I'd like a Snubnose, which gets well beyond 2.9 with a Beast on it. For another 2-3k ped that is, at least. For some this is peanuts, for others it is not. Heck, it is a game! I got me the best unlimited item in this class I could, and it saves me the stress and the markup and potential travel expenses for always having to restock limited stuff. Those also fall out of the picture too often, or one just doesn't like to think about it because it spoils the pretty numbers. Plus the sheer volume I'd have to hunt to make sense pennywise as described above. So this will work for me for the time being, because it has to.

By the way, some of those most savvy in squeezing the best out of their weapons don't seem to be paying much attention to their armours. Still using 5B's, the decay horror...?

As a sidenote, regarding the superior dpp of lasers over blp specifically, since the latter is my choice, I've only recently come up with this thought: Most lasers are significantly slower, which is a disadvantage with mobs that regenerate quickly. This works especially against the effect of finishers. I am not convinced that the better looking dps is always realized on the ground except for situations where all numbers play perfectly together. Plus you need to keep up control and precision at all times. It is then hardly any longer a game to relax with, imo.

 

There are plenty of limited weapons at 2.9 amped that are pretty much tt food. On top of that, the level of play being discussed, there are plenty of cheap options.

As soon as you start climbing past the first few levels though, unlimited gear gets really expensive as you say. But at all stages I'd say there are reasonably priced limited options.

Armor decay is something people seem to miss yes. I noticed my huge decay bills which made me invest in an eco fap. At current, my best choice would be to hunt KC out of an eco perspective keeping the defensive costs at a minimum, but I need to fend off the competition, why I overprotect. But I've seen many people overprotect to such a degree that their defensive costs exceed 10%, which is crazy.

Other things people often miss are tax and reward programs, and I find that average markup doesn't get enough attention either.

 

To make some clarifications...

While I agree with you WS, that 2.8 is far from good, I still consider anything above that decent (at least for the purpose of this post). Also, I do totally agree that when trying to break even and even make a profit, every little bit and every percent matters (and for myself I do try my best to be as eco as possible); also when cycling a lot of money, every little bit becomes a lot over time.

But this post was not about that - in this post I tried to answer a question I saw a lot of people asking over time in all free-to-play games I ever encountered - what I'm expected to get if paying the equivalent of a (WOW) subscription, which is what the vast majority of MMO players seem to consider fair to pay per month for a game.

I didn't intended to be 100% accurate or even close. I am aware that in practice the numbers might (and probably will) be quite different. But I think my post managed to answer the question pretty well - as long as one's happy with staying in the minor league, paying the equivalent of a subscription per month (and considering them an expense, not an investment) is more than enough to offer them some quality time, allowing them to keep shooting anywhere between 2 and 6+ hours per day depending on what mobs they keep from the list and without having to resort to sweating, fruit walking or other similar options.

OFC, I don't mean that's a off-the-shelf, good-for-all solution, just an attempt to an answer for a very common questions (at least among the people I encountered); also by showing the algorithm I went by, that's something that anyone can easily adapt based on whatever they are willing to spend and see about what kind of entertainment they can expect to get from their money.

 

I appreciate the dislike for stating facts, many thanks!

Another fact; this is not just 'any' F2P MMO. This is far different, the sandbox style, the economy, the thought you have to put behind every single action. There is no comparing this game to other games.

Look, I will get a dislike for this post again, I am sure of it and I don't care. But there have been many $10-15 tests done on PCF, I can't be arsed to look there, but trust me, seek and ye shall find. PCF is the forums where 95% of all the logs, tests and whatnot are. And tests that have actual results instead of projected results that don't help anyone.

I know you are trying to help new players that don't really check the forums, but help yourself waste a little bit less time. You are only analyzing the forums here, you are not analyzing what the player base needs here. What the player base wants for information. <deleted>

 

Ignoring and not answering the ad-hominem attacks, especially the really mean one about the important of EQ when you knows very well that I'm an autistic person (and I even said it public here on forums), so, basically unable to have a high EQ score (what you did was pretty much similar with talking about the benefits of running to someone you know is paralyzed), and doing an exception to post for a third time in a single thread, I will explain further more.


#1

As you very well said yourself, EU is a sandbox MMO, which means there are no ways it must be played as, but just many ways it can be played as. And while, of course, it can be played as a RCE, as a business, or whatever, it can also be played and just as any other MMO; even MA itself promotes the game in their adds as a F2P MMO. And, again, while in order to be successful (profitable), indeed you have to think each and every action.

Yet, I really don't think that's the only way to play, and I strongly believe that just playing for fun, admitting that money you put in the game are (mostly) an expense not an investment (just like the subscription in any other game) is a way of playing just as good as mine or yours (and, as a fun fact, two people from your very own society told me that they are loosing money in game for doing dumb things, and that they are OK with this, since they consider it entertainment money).

And I think is about time for all of us to be a bit less elitist and not decide for others that EU is not the right game for them, but just let them come and try it (even encourage them to) and let them decide it for themselves.


#2

If we would follow the principle to not post on ArkadiaForum anything that already exists on PCF, this place would get lonely really soon. Even so, I feel we're only a couple of people (bet that less than 50 regulars) that are active on forum. I think that if anything we all need to post more here and encourage more people to come and join, instead of sending them to PCF.

I know my posts are not brilliant and I know I'm not reinventing the wheel with any of them; I also know that whatever I can say is pretty much common knowledge for any of your, ubers, but I still do it. Why? Because I think/hope that maybe someone who is (even more) new would find them interesting, would help them in their game and eventually decide to post themselves or at least return to read more. And if a single person would consider them interesting, then I'll be happy and consider that my time was not wasted, but invested.

I also think that there are really not right or wrong things to post. If you ask me, I am interested in the technical posts (pretty much as most of mine posts are, but, of course, made by someone smarter and with more experience then me) and I consider more than half of the posts on the forum dumb and useless, not enriching my game experience or knowledge in any way, yet I never commented or said anyone to stop posting them, because for others they may be interesting and/or funny.

Really... both on forums and in game there is place for everyone... no need to belittle each other...

And I will end, just as I started on the original post, with Nietzsche's quote: "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."

 

Forum ratings are overrated, let's not get strung up about it.

EDIT (SNAPE): ...

Edit (San): Argh... got something mixed up there. Thanks for the correction.

 

I believe you will find you are wrong.

And I hope that when you do in fact discover you are wrong, you will have the decency to come back to this thread and apologise for your overly negative personal observations based on zero personal experience with the individual in question, no accurate knowledge of their history or actual personal problems and a brief skim of what you can see on this one forum.

This is not a particularly helpful venue to vent your personal outlook on the Romanian school system, either.

If we go back on topic, though, I see that both you and Lizzy are firmly of the opinion that 90% returns are not a given. And I agree completely that they are _not backed by settings in the MA programming logic for EU_
So what I am specifically agreeing with you on is that: there is no guarantee of what your return will be or any given day, or any given outing.
I have personally gone mining and gotten awful returns using tried and tested methods in tried and tested areas some days. Just ask Neil Greenleaf.

However, as WhiningSkeptic has said as well: if you take the time to read their logs and documents, almost every person who runs steady, effective and detailed logs over an extended period of time shows a trend in their overall TT loot returned... Girts is above 90. Others are a shade below. Some are almost bang on. But I don't know anyone who has ever logged a detailed log over a decent amount of time who tracked a 50% return. We are not saying there is a coded value that the program checks for and hands out.

We're just saying that we believe the weight of statistical and empirical evidence shows that "if you hunt mobs you have the bank roll and skills to hunt steadily, and that are roughly appropriate for you as a challenge, your TT return values appear to trend towards around 90%"

While I am happy to accept that this was originally touted by players as an ideal (presumably because they could easily get better than 10% markup on all their stuff at the time) as far as I am concerned the origin of the number from that point of view does not impact the observed empirical data from people like Girts and others who have been running their logs for YEARS, and which run right up till this month.

So... before you get all worked up... I agree with you as well: running the same game with 150 PED is usually agreed to be "too small a sample size" to be able to accurately rely on the loot trend to average out for you... (depending what you hunt, how much of your return is going to skills, etc). It's possible with 150 PED even hunting only Carabok to potentially have a really disastrous week or two and burn your cash out early (although personal experience with the Carabok is that they seem to pay pretty steadily even for the small end of the scale).

I don't believe the OP is saying anything about worst case scenarios, just like she does not appear to be saying anything rosy about expecting to get globals on Carabok... She is just taking a base bank roll and working the numbers to highlight to people that in EU if you sell your loot and re-buy ammo, YOU DO NOT ONLY SPEND YOUR MONEY ONCE - this is actually not a bad thing to point out to new players.

Regardless of whether the percentage is 95, 90, 85, or 75, cycling your loot inescapably gives you more play time. Which means a deposit of $15 a month actually does go a lot further than a starter player might imagine.

With one important extra note of course: if you can find someone to buy some of your stuff for better than TT, you are "clawing back" some of the losses the system is otherwise inflicting on you for your play and advancement.

To both yourself and Lizzy, I would like to suggest: be a little less aggressive perhaps. Read some of the things KikkiJikki posts if you're not sure what I mean: he disagrees with MANY posts other people write, but even when he does he gets THANKED for his considered (and experienced, and valued) opinion - because he takes the time in most cases to remove his own ego from the equation and he writes his facts as constructive criticism or his own viewpoint.

We are on this forum because we are interested in your thoughts and ideas just as must as we are interested in Kiddoo's.
Please remember that all of us form our opinions of you (as well as the OP) based on how you write and react to what others post here.

And good luck out there.

 

I don't know if the long-term return rate on EU is 90% or not, but it would make perfect sense (and a profitable business model) if it were. If you simply take a look at Las Vegas slot machine return rates (every casinos biggest revenue stream) you will find most strip casinos offer a 96.5% return rate. Downtown and local casinos run up to 98% and they are building new ones every day. So it is not far fetched to believe the RNG's Mindark uses for their algorithms would be set at an average of 90%.

Your swings come from a little thing called variance. If you do not understand variance, a simple exercise will teach you what I'm talking about. Take a coin and flip it. You have a 50/50 chance of hitting one side or the other every time. Now record which side hits which over ten flips, 100 flips, 1000 flips. You might be amazed at some of the runs you find when fipping a small sample size. You may go 9-1 out of ten, or 65-35 out of 100. This is your variance.

However in the long-term (ten thousand + flips) you will even out to that 50% medium. Obviously the longer you play and the more PED you cycle, you should be able to hit that magic 90%, but with a smaller budget several bad runs could be disastrous. Much like gambling, (or any other form of entertainment) the key is to play within your means. If that happens to be $15 USD per month, I'm certain there is a way to enjoy many hours of entertainment in this vast universe.

 

There is no set return in EU. A set return implies you will get loot. I have done two D class amps, several quantity clicks of beacin, dozens of level 2 on partial condition, several hundred peds of lysterium power containers, all without successes... And not even partials on the beacins and level 2's. NOTE TO MA: I don't know what kind of Economics they teach you in Sweden, but in America, this is not how you run a business. You don't kill the golden goose in order to take it's egg. You feed the goose so it keeps laying more golden eggs and you pickem as you findem.

A. Eco does not matter. My average loot size drops when I play eco.
B. Personal loot pools are real. Everyones loot is within a certain parameter relative their play style. I can drop one name but I wont, however if you seen the data you would agree.

I further want to go on the record and express my disgust with those who would silence people who are blunt and to the point, and voice legitimate concern. Here there is something called freedom of speech and of the press... But that's right, you are mostly folks in Europe who value tyranny and monarchy, and it is pitiable.. You cannot silence people simply because they are not politically correct or because they aren't a$$ kissers. Yet you do, and as such, all voices of caution and reason are stricken from the record. I cannot respect the champions of censorship. We are, as per MA's EULA, adults, yet no one wants to allow a real forum for the truth. I swear I will start my own forum some day and no one will be allowed to be censored.

 

Matttttt Damonnnnn

 

No offence sir, but I did not say there was. I thought I was in fact very careful in stating my thoughts on the way various players experience differing returns.

I'm very sorry to hear this, but without any insight into your actual crafting levels and discipline-specific scores, the members of this forum cannot make you any recommendations as to how you might improve your returns. If you check with KikkiJikki and other noted weapon and attachment crafters I am pretty sure you will find that a sample size of 2 is far too small to state your returns suck for D-Classes. I appreciate they DO suck, but most crafters will be telling you "run 500 of those off and tell me what you see."

There is a chance of success bar (coloured) and the actual blueprint will tell you what percentage chance you have to craft the item in question - could I ask what the stated percentage was for your utterly failed run on the several hundred power containers? For your reference, that percentage you are shown is _not_ actually the statistical chance you have to craft one instance of the item.

Regardless though: please be advised that in general every mentor I am aware of on this forum regularly advises their disciples NOT to get into Crafting without a HUGE bankroll and a really, really solid working understanding of item sales for their target crafted item (unless you just want to skill up and are willing to pay for the skill points heavily). Crafting is perhaps the most punishing area because it can use up so many PED per click (as you are well aware) and because the outcomes can so often go very poorly for you on a bad run.

My recommendation would be to take this portion of your post (off-topic as it is) over to the Crafting forum and see if you can get some more help there perhaps. Mods are welcome to cut this portion of my reply and move it as well.

Just wanted to add here that I am in fact a folk in Europe, and that while I have no beef with monarchy you might be surprised at my stance on tyranny... I happen to agree with you that it might have been wiser to let the post that was removed stand, if nothing else as a valid way for those who read this post later to correctly assess the character of the individual who posted it.

That said, this is also an off-topic post really, and should likely be raised elsewhere too.

Wishing you better luck with your future crafting endeavours...
Cly

 

lol.

Google randomness. Also google probability. Khan academy will help you get up to date with 1st grade math.

Dozens of clicks!? Really!? TWO D CLASS AMPS!? OMG! OMG!

Lol.

Nice trolling.

 

Yes it was and liked the part about the note to MA about how our American companies work.