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Why are L guns repairable while L swords arent (c)

Discussion in 'Wishlist' started by Alice, Jul 10, 2012.

  1. Alice

    Alice Member

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    heyas [​IMG]

    you probably wonder like "wtf, my L gun isnt repairable, whats that nutter talking about?!?!?!"
    and it is correct, you can't repair it in the normal sense, but you can compared to melee (thats what the c in the title stands for)
    so indeed, it is another thread about the melee problem (guilty of using a catchy topic to get attention;if basically noone read this, i failed and am terribly sad [​IMG])
    you probably know my thread about melee problems which i wrote years ago (ok, you prolly don't. cant blame ya)
    the summary of that is that
    1) there are not enough melee weapons around and
    b)their high decay makes any price above 105% eco suicide
    in that case, i basically use the high decay as a reference to explain why it is, compared, unfairly handled than guns
    since they break faster you need more (way more) amountwise and since the decay is higher the markup% hits it more compared to the low decay of guns

    in this second angle id like to do another comparision, using my all time favourite apis for this #D
    the apis is a funky blp rifle with 205 ped max tt, 13 pec ammo per shot and a total has 6658 total uses!! (according to wiki)
    now a tesla sword has 348.5 ped max tt, 34,868 decay and just 970 uses [​IMG]

    thus, compared, for every apis at auction you would need ~7 tesla swords to have a roughly even coverage if you look at the uses

    those "more uses" are effectively bought with ammunition you can buy from the tt
    this again stretches your 205 ped with the 865,54 ped of ammo you can shoot to a total ped "rotation" per apis of 1070,57
    without the ammo, you would be a melee fighter however, who doesnt have the luxary or buying ammo at the tt

    thus, effectively, the ammunation works like you could repair your L gun a number of times to prolong its life (kinda 5 repairs in my example)


    now the suggestion is, naturally, give L melee some repairs, best would be a total of ped repairs, not amounts, since you can buy ammo in increments too, and dont have to buy your (apis example) 1070 ammo right away
    this would be fair imo


    hf [​IMG]

    PS, this is a copy pasted text i published on PCF as well, but here i have the feeling it may be heard actually ;)
     
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  2. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Familiar with this issue. It's why I don't bother to craft melee weapons cos you cant sell at a MU that makes money for the crafter and is also eco for the hunter.

    Sorry I don't like the idea of giving L weapons any repair capability. I did think though that we could make melee weapons charged (for extra electrical, burn, acid damage etc). Heck I have a masher that I can use a torch so there is clearly some power being applied. A charged weapon can have a powersource that can either be repaired (In which case the powerpack is an attachment like an amp) or can take the equivalent of ammo for a given number of clicks (in which case it can be an integral part of the weapon).

    Regards,
    KikkiJikki
     
  3. Xandra

    Xandra Active Member Pro Users

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    Hi,

    Don't worry. You have been heard. No reason to be sad about. :cool:

    At first:
    For sure, PCF has many users. But it's a planet specific forum, as is the AF here, too. I'm not sure if it wouldn't be better to post this to EP, after all it's the largest all-EU forum (not this far behind PCF), and maybe to EF, too - not many ppl left there, but still it's the only "official" all-EU forum, right?

    You're right though that here are the best chances to be heard :whistle:

    Back to topic now:
    I think this are two connected points. Since a MU above 105% is eco suicide for the buyer the potential seller will rarely take the risk to put it into auction - too high risk not to sell, and to pay a high auction fee.
    And the crafter? Well, why crafting something where there's no money to be earned? It's not that the crafting of melee weapons would be this cheap, according to BtB most longblades are made with component MU's ways above the potential selling prices, and this doesn't even consider that you'll rarely have a run w/o "fails".

    In your Apis example you point to the problem:

    Would the Apis be a sword, it would have a TT of 1070,57 PED (item + ammo), and you'd pay the MU for all of these 1070,57 PED.
    But since it's gun, you only pay MU for the 205 PED max. TT (item only, ammo has no MU).
    With ~123% MU this means we'd pay an absolute MU of 246.23 for the "Apis sword", but only 47.15 for the real Apis gun.

    These ~200 PED MU difference are the reason why an "Apis sword" only could be sold with a MU of 104.40% (47.15) to be en par with the Apis gun. (really hope I didn't miscalculate ...)

    And for this 104.40% nearly nobody will craft/ auction it, and so only very few "Apis swords" would be available. Ways too few to ensure a steady supply for a vivid swords fighter.

    And this is the reason why melee fighting is sub par, why only a few of the UL melee weapons can be used at all. No way to earn a serious PED offering, no way to create a healthy demand due to system immanent failures.

    A try to offer a solution:

    Since we have learned that the main problem is the lacking use of MU-free ammo on swords, let's give them a kind of ammo!


    1. Version:
      Decay of melee weapons gets reduced to a value where the added ammo consumption would equal it out.
      Slightly below 3 PEC for the above mentioned "Apis sword", suiting the gun equivalent.
      Not anymore the 35 PEC of the comparable Tesla (btw., Entropedia seems to have wrong data here ...) Instead using the same 1300 weapon cells, or an TT available equivalent.
      .
    2. Version:
      Amps, the long promised melee amps, finally!
      The current melee weapons would be left untouched, but a series of L and UL melee amps would be introduced. These amps would heavily increase the dam/sec output, for the cost of similar heavy "ammo" usage.
      This would need to be balanced, but might result in a multiplication of the dam/sec of the current melee weapons. Don't enrage now, they'd still have the heavy decay per use! And they'd still have the disadvantage of the lowest range!
      But, imagine, in close melee combat, what you'd fear more - a long rifle, or a sharp dagger?

    Anyway, be happy, my time is over, so I'll stop writing more. Maybe this can add some new ideas. Let's hope it will be read by ppl that have the power to change anything, or I'll be terribly sad [​IMG]

    Have a good time!

    PS: Link to the PCF thread ;-)
     
  4. RexDameon

    RexDameon Active Member Pro Users

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    here is an idea why can't swords use ammo?

    Especially the ones that look like a bloody lightsaber. Why can't you use energy cells to "power" it. still have it decay a bit and it be L but just have it work much like a gun does.
     
  5. Alice

    Alice Member

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    guess this post is more complicated than my first one :p

    but i mostly wanted to bring it back to mind and get a discussion :)

    thanks Xandra :D

    PS, i posted in EF too ;)
     
  6. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    Yep. I agree on the MU disparity... as KJ said, you just can't justify using melee above TT level if it's (L) and isn't beings sold at a loss by the crafter. I don't see any reason why a powered sword (which many of them claim to be) couldn't use weapon cells. In fact, I'd bet that planet partners have the ability to create an ammo-powered sword right now.... even if the sword can't use weapon cells directly, they could always just create a new type of ammo (which other PPs have done).

    Or what about this idea.... make melee weapons like L vehicles. They have a certain amount of structural integrity which can be repaired in the repair terminal, but the TT slowly goes down to zero. Same effect without having to do anything funny with "sword ammo".

    +rep to Alice for this bringing this idea out.

    Question to the A-team:

    Do you have the ability to design a weapon like this? Are there any technical issues holding you back from making a sword like this or (preferably) converting all the current swords to do this?
     
  7. XeroX

    XeroX Active Member Pro Users

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    Just buy a UL Philosophers sword for tt+100 or even better hero for tt+300 and never pay any MU again. Can't get much more eco than that actually. I think the Ancient Greece UL Swords already solved the Melee problem... just noone noticed.They are absolutely superior to anything you could get in the ranged categories.
     
  8. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    Those are nice swords, XeroX, but they haven't "solved" the melee problem... first, and most importantly, there is a 18 profession level gap between the TT equipment and the philosopher's sword.
     
  9. Kinnison

    Kinnison Active Member

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    A related problem to this is weight, availability and having to muck about with the interface when using melee weapons. I haven't done any really serious hunting with melee weapons, but I'm told that for a decent-length run one often has to carry anything up to three or four swords. This means extra weight (OK, maybe this isn't often important), possible problems with getting enough weapons to stock up for a run and, as I already said, having to mess about with the interface controls when a weapon breaks.

    A lot of the melee weapons in Entropia seem to have some energy component (they glow for one thing, and sometimes do burn or electrical damage or both for another) so it seems to me that the best way of sorting this out is to drastically decrease decay and make them use charges. Or, possibly, introduce a "sharpener" or something that also decays or uses charges, something like the vehicle repair tool.

    After all, when people really did use swords they used to sharpen them between fights. :)

    Melee weapon crafters might sell less weapons but would get better MU. :)
     
  10. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    Now that Calypso has L swords that consume ammo... any chance that we can get some of ammo-swords of our own on Arkadia?

    [The issue, for those who don't pay attention to melee or didn't bother to read the whole thread, is that in order for a melee weapon to be useful, it must have a very high TT. Since it doesn't consume extra ammo, all it's hp damage comes directly from TT decay. Since it's high TT, it is by definition a rare drop. For instance, in all my time of hunting here, I've found many guns but just looted my first real L sword (Make Lightning 1), 170 ped or so TT, which is not even half of its max TT value. It was nice, but after a brief hunt it was all used up. L swords can't be crafted economically so you have to rely on looting them, but they don't drop enough to loot regularly because they're high TT. The "ammo" sword solves all those problems and they become just like guns: a 50 ped sword could last for a 2000 ped hunt, and it would drop about a thousand times more frequently than a 2000 ped sword.]
     
  11. Jenny ferr

    Jenny ferr Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    I would much rather have something to sharpen the sword/knife/fist with then to use ammo, and not to mention melee amps those could use ammo tho if they add some additional damage as that would need some energy to keep the sword/knife/fist covered with this kind of added damage.

    and without amps if they would use ammo you have no reliable way at all to measure the length/cost of your hunt, depending on how low the decay is I guess you could fruit test after the hunt but...
     
  12. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    I totally agree with you. If we had a choice, a sharpener would be a better solution, and it would make tracking returns easier too. I only mentioned the sword "ammo" because they already exist in game now....
     
  13. Alice

    Alice Member

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    problem of a sharpener tho, it would prolly be L

    and if you would use a L item to restore tt of the L sword, you are back at square one

    so unless it would be a unlimited sharpener or an unlimited sharpener transforming say energy ammo into, well, energy to "repair" the sword, preferably bought from the tt ofc
    cause if it isnt a unL item from the tt we are looking at price ranges from 2000-40 000 ped, depending on the mechanics, and the lower end with 2k is unlikely
    and if you wouldnt limit the sharperning/repairing you get into balance problems, "why make it L in the first place"

    but i am happy about any solution, cause atm there is none :)
    the ammo using swords are a start, but not craftable yet afaik
    however, low tt for melee-good, low decay for melee-generally good unless the markup gets hilarious, ammo for melee-well, its a possible way

    gotta see how it turns out
     

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