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Attacking?Defensive Strategies - Do they Exist?

Discussion in 'New Player Discussions' started by Louise Ranavolana Brooks, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. Louise Ranavolana Brooks

    Louise Ranavolana Brooks Active Member

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    I am not a new player anymore - but that just gives me some awareness of what I don't know.
    Before I was in a world of blissful ignorance.
    I had a mentor when I started, unfortunately his approach was to answer questions. Which was not much help where I did not know how to pose them.
    I am not complaining about him - I received high quality information & this continued after I had "graduated"
    I get my information now from reading forums & observing what happens to me in game.
    But I am aware that what seems to be going on is not necessarily the reality here.

    I assume that when interacting with mobs, that there is movement, defense, attack. And that if one thing is happening the others aren't.
    I have noticed that mobs can have more than one attack, one more deadly than the other.

    When I was on Caly, I liked to attack high level robots, troopers etc.
    What I used to do was move up real close attack with Knife, move back a bit, the robot would move up rather than fire, I attack, move back a bit etc etc. Hopefully up close I was dealing with robots secondary weaker? attack.
    I tended to get killed quickly at the start, but as time went on, their attacks became less effective, less trips back from revival till eventually I could kill one in one battle.
    I really could not tell if this was down to my tactics, or was I just getting my reflexes "in gear".

    Here when I have interactions with Hadraada's (they like to interrupt me when I am tree hunting).
    I notice that when I am healing myself, the damage they do is greater than when I am fighting them (so I am assuming that instead of attacking, they have to defend)

    I always use autofire, press X, my av then moves to target & attacks, I always am in 3rd person mode, looking from side, down on, even watching from the mobs viewpoint.

    I notice that my av attacks with a knife from quite a distance - so I move her/me up close - and it seems that more damage is done...maybe? I really cannot tell.

    So what do people think? Can movement influence damage?
    (Other than the one, attack with a ranged weapon, move back as mob moves forward - keeping out of its range as long as possible - while not moving into the aggro range of some other mob) - that works :),
    But I am talking moving up, away etc
     
  2. mastermesh

    mastermesh Member

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  3. Louise Ranavolana Brooks

    Louise Ranavolana Brooks Active Member

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    You will need to dumb it down for me a bit mastermesh for that link was not helpful.
    Hitboxes, so??
    But thanks for making an effort
     
  4. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    IMO, the movement you describe has no real impact. Their hit and crit frequency decreases as your evader profession lvls up.
    You can use advantagous positioning. For example if I am being targeted by multiple large mobs then I can sometimes maneuver so that only one can attack (the other ends up in unreachable state).

    Being attacked does not appear to affect a mob's attack rate.

    Damage is not affected by range. If your target is in range and you hit then damage is in line with the discussion here: http://www.entropedia.info/Page.aspx?page=ChartTalk:Weapon . So the key is your hit and damage profession levels compared to the weapon skill reqiurements.

    When a mob attacks and hits you then it's non-critical damage ranges between max/2 and max with average damage being 0.75*max

    If you are using ranged weapons, your hit chance at long range can be affected by the use of a scope. Not sure if I have a link to specific details but from memory, the scope benefit is inversely proportional to the distance from target.
     
  5. Louise Ranavolana Brooks

    Louise Ranavolana Brooks Active Member

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    I agree positioning can be advantageous - or work to your detriment when there is a bunch of mobs & you have targeted a creature when there are others between you and it - av keeps trying to reach the target & taking damage while trying to get set up to attack.

    However,I have been testing things since my post above. I have been attacking a mob with a knife. select target, select autofire, av moves into range, then I move right up next to the mob, taking care not to move too far too quickly lest autofire stops & I have to restart it.
    I can deal out damage but don't receive any other than maybe once when I am moving into range.

    I have tried it on Orotan Prospectors & on Zadul. and it seems to work - other than receiving maybe one attack at the start, all the attacks are coming from me. The mob is fighting, but no damage is recorded.

    This is a bit different from what I was saying in my first post - but it is observable. (As much as what one sees happening is actually entropia reality)

    KikkiJikki, that link - trying to read it just gave me a headache, I just play for fun - that seemed too much like maths & work - I do enough of that IRL :)
     
  6. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    You know have the info on how things actually work within EU. You are of course free to ignore it.

    Regards,
    KikkiJikki
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. Louise Ranavolana Brooks

    Louise Ranavolana Brooks Active Member

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    So you now how things actually work in EU then?
    Good for you
     
  8. mastermesh

    mastermesh Member

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    Mobs have hit boxes and avatars do too. Not sure if they are actual squares or other shapes... If you move out of the range of their their attack area I suspect that it has an impact... like if it is a square they'll do more damage on you if you are in the center of the square but if you move to the edge of that square where you are outside of that area for a brief time it has an impact on how many times and how fast they can hit you... Back in the day when I swung an archon sword it seemed that if I sort of moved left/right and strifed around the mob in a circle it made a difference.

    Some claim the walking backwards and shooting works... not sure if it helps much once they are in range, but it might?

    In ancient days of swunting ambu there were a few vus when the mobs hit box was screwy as was collision detection of the mob, so you'd get too close with your sword and knives and actually be 'inside' of the mobs 3d animation and for a brief instant outside the range of their hitbox since the system saw you as on the other side of where the attack should be... they fixed that one pretty quickly for the most part but I suspect it still happens from time to time on some mob.

    If it actually did or not is up for debate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  9. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    Sounds like people are giving you the answers but you want different ones? To dumb it down: when you use your weapon on the mob, it does damage to the mob. The mob also attacks and damages you. There really aren't any other factors besides using different weapons to deal different damage and using armor to absorb some of the damage. You can learn about weapon and armor stats on entropedia.

    If you want to look like a noob, jump around or do other "tricks" while killing the mob.
     
  10. Louise Ranavolana Brooks

    Louise Ranavolana Brooks Active Member

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    I have read posts when new players in their ignorance posts stuff & seems then others rush to put that player down.
    I have thought, geez that is unfair - but when one is on the end of that sort of stuff and receives it personally, It is bloody hurtful.

    I noticed something & I thought, "I will post that, see what others think - maybe there is something in it, different things can explain the result maybe?"
    Would have been better if my post was ignored, for the responses were brusk & laconic, pretentious & downright effing rude.

    A fact of the internet is that with different cultures & nationalities can cause misunderstandings in communication & give offense where none was intended maybe is the case here - but I think not.

    Thank you for your second post mastermesh. I am not going to debate or discuss this - or in fact anything on this forum again, I will find out things for myself & ask people ingame - those I know have the skill & experience.

    And Neil, as an advisor, your post reflects little credit on the position. Maybe you should reflect why maybe not many post here.
    Maybe you should put "trainee" in front of your title, "noob" even
     
  11. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    Hi Louise,

    I''m sorry if you feel you are under attack or being put down. That's not really what's happening here but I understand how easy it is to read subtext or intent that was not in fact intended.

    You've posted your experience and ideas and asked for feedback. And that's whats been given. The reality is that combat mechanics in EU are well understood owing to extensive testing carried out over the years. There is a sound mathematical basis for how hit chance, crits, damage, armour protection all work and these are documented. When that information is presented you don't want to take the time to understand it because you are here to have fun. OK that's your choice, I get that. The game is supposed to be fun.

    I also like that you trust your own experience. That's great, do your own tests, collect data and draw conclusions. This is good practice and more people should do that. EntropiaLife has some useful tracking functions in its client that you can use if it doesn't spoil your fun.

    However in answer to the question you asked in your original post, I am asserting that no, the movement you describe doesn't actually provide you any pve combat advantage.

    Regards,
    KikkiJikki
     
  12. Neil

    Neil Adviser Pro Users Arkadia Adviser

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    Could you be more specific with what you didn't like about my post? I apologize if it wasn't what you were looking for. You asked for a dumbed down explanation of mob interaction and I gave what I thought would be a (very) simplified explanation according to what is known about game mechanics.

    You were asking for feedback on your theories that movement affects the mob's attack. Everyone so far has given feedback that disagrees with your original assumptions, based on the many years of investigation Kikki Jikki mentioned. If you have discovered evidence that movement can affect a mob's attack then you should present that information so we can verify if it's repeatable. A video of what you're doing might be helpful.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  13. Dan59

    Dan59 Active Member

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    Mob AI result as mob action in few different states as you mentioned could be attack (hit) state and defense state but also when AI need to decide if keeping attack/defense state or change to run after you because you got on border of his attack area or out of it.
    Because bad programing or because in most cases better AI would need a lot more server processing - mob AI is simplified as much is possible.
    That result in rare occasions different mob behavior that give you feeling that you avoid attacks because of your movement.
    That apply in rare places with terrain glitch where mob cant run or move with normal speed or sometimes because server side lag what cause wrong AI calculation and you find mob "undecided" to attack you or run after you.
    Typical mob on witch is still possible to provoke that undecided state is proteron on Caly.
    But to do that you need to have good general and evade skills, good fap and a lot patience to get on border of his attack or just little more of that to get him undecided where he cant hit and in same time you are not enough far to make him run after you.
    In old PE thing could be useful like scanning an umbranoid for hours without being hit but ofc also not getting any defense skills.
    Today on most mobs where you can provoke this situation is solved because MA added new stance - "stuck" where mob cant be damaged, scanned, can teleport away after some time and mobs have bigger attack range before they start run after you.

    That mob attack you more when fapping is true to some point mostly because nerfs trough many VU.
    Today you don't get all combat/defense skill set when healing and so you also do not use them.
    You use them when using weapon so resulting in getting less damage - first part of story.
    Second part - damaged mobs attack or run slower.
    Just tag two same maturity mobs on same distance and then shoot only one - damaged mob will reach you a lot latter than one who was only agroed. No mystery there, its game mechanic.

    That mobs may have more than one type of damage exist for long time. Robots can combat with ranged and melee.
    To try obvious go hunt warlock 10 or some event big robot. If warlock shoot on you from distance you are quite safe with some faping but if it come enough close to use melee will be more faping then fighting assuming you are not lvl 160 evade lol.

    Anyway first time tested other types of damage and first mob on witch was implemented was Rextelum on Caly and latter MA gave this option to use to all planet partners included also possibility to add special types of shity movements like drones that do not run to you or fefoids that start to move in circles around you etc
    So today you can find mobs witch can hit with melee/ranged and have also an attack like cold, acid, electric etc.

    Whatever skills you have you are capped with weapon stats.
    Melee is poor developed if at all - just look how many different attacks animations your avatar can produce...
    And we don't have active skills as in other games to do bigger damage.
    Your movement as help to do more damage could mean finding better position to hit mob hit box and that's all
     
  14. Louise Ranavolana Brooks

    Louise Ranavolana Brooks Active Member

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    I was going to just leave things, feeling that this forum was not the place to discuss stuff - but after discussions with some players in game,
    I feel that this topic should run a bit.

    Firstly I apologise for my remarks & stance earlier, I got really angry when I should have walked away for a day or so & thought about stuff.
    But please understand this - I do have some experience (when I said I was a noob in some areas i.e. crafting, mining, taming, space - I do a bit of hunting & shooting stuff). So please take me seriously not as it seemed blow me off & talk down to me.
    I just noticed something & I wanted some insights as to what could be causing it.

    My original post I could have stated things better - will try again, later.
     

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