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A simple idea with major Economic Impact.

Discussion in 'Wishlist' started by Bradley Killer Kell, May 25, 2015.

  1. KikkiJikki

    KikkiJikki Well-Known Member Pro Users

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    sure but u are basing on older financial reports arent you? I wonder what the situation is for this financial year
  2. Kiddoo

    Kiddoo Deactivated User

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    I read this idea with much interest, but avoided to say my POV far now, because I'm kinda between pro and against.

    In theory, your idea doesn't sounds bad - give everyone the chance to a small apartment to increase their interest and commitments towards the game, as well as stimulate certain economy sectors. And I have to admit it is very possible that it will work just like this and achieve these goals. I could bring arguments in this direction, but I won't since you already did it a few times, and it would mean just repeat them.

    I will talk about a few flaws in your logic and about some problems I see:

    1. You pretty much base your arguments on the premise that there are 3-3.5K apartments and nothing else, while the truth is that there are much cheaper apartments too. Even on Arkadia we have apartments with like 1/3rd of this price (so just a bit over 1K ped) and if going to look on the cheap ones across the universe, saw some coming to as low as 500 PED. So someone who really wants an apartment, will eventually get it - either by saving or depositing.

    2. Based on same argument as on previous point, while noone wanting and affording a 3k+ apartment will not be interested in the instanced studios, those less rich people (like me) who now save for an apartment at maximum 1k, might just drop the idea of saving and be happy with the instanced studios, dropping the market for those low end apartments farther more. If you would want to not affect the real estate market, you would have to make sure that said instance apartments are much worse than any existing apartment, which would be hard to achieve with the low end apartments already being about what you suggest for (just not instanced).

    3. I understand that for people coming from games like WOW, with a lot of instanced areas, that will look like a natural thing, but for many of us who prefers sandbox games, one of the main attraction points is just this lack of (or well, in EU case limited number of, since we have instances) instanced areas - the idea that owning something, is really not only bytes in a database, but a uniquely identified place in the world - even if that uniquely identified place is the 29th floor in a skyscrapers neighborhood. :p Adding instanced apartments I think creates a dangerous precedent and it wouldn't be long before people would start asking for bigger instanced apartments, instanced shops, instanced everything.

    4. Also, your suggestion of untradeable shop only items, while really popular within the other MMOs, I don't think would really suit Entropia's RCE model where, ideally, everything should be freely tradeable back and forth, supporting the deposit/withdraw at any time model. And, talking about my last point, that's exactly the danger of a precedent - we had the starting package items which now created the precedent for other people (you in this case) to ask for more similar items.

    5. EU is not and was never a fast, easy or cheap game. It is not a theme park, it is not for everyone (especially not for someone who expects things handed to them on a silver plate) and is not offering instant gratification. And yes, that will scare away many potential new players, but at the same that attracted many of us towards here - the fact that everything you manage to achieve in EU would feel like a genuine achievement, you'll know that you worked your a$$ for it and you invested - either time, money or both.

    Generally, I think that EU is a unique game addressing to a certain niche market and many of us love it for what it is; changing it and moving it more towards other MMOs, might bring new players to the game, but at the same time might scare away people that were with the game since years, through good and bad times. So, personally, I'm rather reluctantly towards any major changes like this one. I agree we need new players, but new players that would like EU for what it is, not players for which EU should change.
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    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  3. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    I won't know until it's released. So can only go off the information currently available.
  4. Bradley Killer Kell

    Bradley Killer Kell Member

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    Some very good and fair points.

    Some research would need to be done, of course. For instance, what Percentage of Players Own Apartments? What is the Vacancy of Apartments? Are the 'Lesser Apartments' at the same Occupancy as the High End? Is there a need or demand for the type of Studio Apartment that the idea suggests?

    Generally, those who will put $50 USD into a 'low level apartment' likely won't let a 'free box' stop them from having an actual, In Game, walk by and see it from the Street, actual Apartment. Again, it's the Prestige Factor that goes with it... they have something tangible, with much more perceived value, than the 'free' or 'low rent' offer.

    So absolutely, the numbers need to be crunched... but there is no need to crunch those numbers without a reason. This idea supplies such a reason. So then the Research to see if the idea is viable.

    In your 3 Point, you exactly explain why one would still pay 500 PED or 1,500 PED for a 'lesser apartment' over the Studio idea... because they would have it in the actual Game World instead of in some solo-cube instance.

    The 'Locked Item' is solo an idea to help MA/A-Team earn more. I also absolutely propose Player Made, but that would require new Blue Prints to be created and a lot of work to get them in and balance them. I'm not opposed to that, but I understand that would be a huge effort. Obviously, I'm all for "Player to Player Trade", just giving a suggestion for something that only players that Deposit/Pay (Store) can have. For those Small to Mid Tier Depositors, though I guess these same items could be applied to any Owned Property. Every time MA/A-Team is paid DIRECTLY, it's a full Win for them... and for those that wish to support this free game in that manner, it's nice to have such options.

    Lastly, I don't think the Studio idea would make the game any faster, or easier. While I understand that EU serves a niche market, that is part of the issue (as 5 consecutive Years of Losses shows for Mind Ark). On a Financial front, EU is bleeding out... if they can't fix they, they die. If they die, the Platform is gone (well, possibly sold to the highest bidder, which won't be that high since they would be diving). Which means good teams (like the A-Team here on Arkadia) would be without a platform for us to play. They have to step forward and become more of a force, and that will go a long way in fixing the Balance Sheet.

    They do that by improving what they are... which specifically is a Sci-Fi MMORPG. THAT is what the game is. Not RCE... RCE isn't a 'Game Genre'. So they need to make this the best Sci-Fi MMORPG that they can... they do that, the RCE will take care of itself. Which is why I proposed such an idea as I did.

    That last part is vital, so I will repeat it. MA, and thus all the Partners they have, need to do one thing to fix the Bottom Line for MindArk... which needs to happen since they are all tied into MA. Make the best Sci-Fi MMORPG that they can. They do that, the RCE part will take care of itself.
  5. MaxHecWalker

    MaxHecWalker Active Member

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    Just so everyone is literally on the same page here...
    The financial information that everyone should being referring to is located at

    The fall 2014 report does not appear to be posted there. But it's safe to assume their policy is to withhold public disclosure for 1 year.

    Considering the economic situation and the slump in the value of the USA dollar so their exchange rate took a hit then & thereby effected some investments, took a loss on sale of building, paying back loans, depreciation(bought new building and equipment), yada, yada, yada.
    Anyways I honestly didn't read anything that throws up any big danger flags.

    And remember the US dollar only returned to its pre-2008 value just this January, while the Euro is at a low since January!
    So it's not unreasonable to expect non-USA gamers to spend less on EU, at least until the USD drops in value
    Plus it's summer in the northern hemisphere, so less USA/Canadian/UK/European/Swedish/Russian gamers indoors playing now, but that'll change next fall.

    You mention RCE is not a genre which I agree with 110%.
    But I'd like to point out EU was originally often marketed as a virtual world.

    Scroll in video to 3:25 minutes and it talks about estates.
    A dozen years later... hmmm just were is that wallpaper, paintable walls/doors, interchangeable/removable doors & frames, etc? [​IMG]
    Oh and also the flashlights, walking sticks and backpacks. :p
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
  6. MaxHecWalker

    MaxHecWalker Active Member

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    So the problem with adding new estates (too quickly) is they may devalue the current estates.
    Especially if there is too many unsold/empty estates.

    But after a lot of reading (on other forums too gasp!) it appears to be a noticeable number of estates that are bought just to be resold at a later date, or left empty after just a couple months.

    So I will take a stab at Bradley's concept, by coming up with something more solid outlined here.
    Also working under the (extremely unlikely) premise of giving ideas and rules that might help our Ark Officials & A-Team sell it all to MA.

    I will propose 2 types of estates calling them Micro and Mini estates.
    These would be for new players and budget players, but also to generate monthly/yearly revenue from these new type of estates.
    Also what I propose below is with the hope to limit the effects on current shop & estates values, while generating enough revenue through micro transactions to make it an interesting concept.
    (FYI Yes this'll likely be lame 1st run of crazy ideas that'll galvanize players like UL vs Limited, so free-popcorn for all & enjoy!)

    What kind of new estates would I propose for Arkadia & Calypso?
    Micro-estates = 1 small room approximately the width & length of Avatar laying down, OR the width of a couch in EU.
    Mini-estates = 2 small rooms (like above) or a larger room about double the size of Micro-estate.

    1. The deeds to these Micro-estates and Mini-estates are not sellable/transferable to other players.
    2. Maximum 1 avatar allowed to unit at a time.
    The maximum 1 avatar limit does not count the estate deed holder, but only if they have the deed on them...
    3. The number of items limit placed/displayed in a unit, perhaps 18 items Micro, and 32 for Mini.

    4. Items in estate can not have selling prices and P2P trade function is blocked.
    -OR- All items sold in estate & P2P trades have 6.5% tax (plus simply mention tax rate in the estate terminal, & in Deed's description)

    5. Micro & Mini estate deeds have a 3 month count-down timer that resets when the player visits estate.
    If timer reaches 0 then player has not entered/used estate in 3 months and any items on estate get dumped in planet storage and estate automatically goes up for sale again.
    6. The Micro-estate deeds are good for 1 month (and deed has countdown timer just like mining deeds).
    The Mini-estate deeds are good for 1 year (and deed has countdown timer just like mining deeds).
    7. Avatar's can renew estates at any time, either using deed or at the estate's terminal.
    8. Automatic renewal must allow opt-IN/Out, and I would assume this function would be available on both estate terminal & the deed.
    9. If player does not have peds to automatically renew, give them a pop up warning when they log in and a grace period of up to 10 days.
    If that player doesn't have ped and doesn't visit the estate within 3 months during the grace period then estate goes up for sale, but the player does not get the "gone vagrant" achievement*** (see #22 for ***).
    10. Side note: The 3 month timer could be stopped for avatar's who contacted MA and let them know they'd be offline for awhile, but it automatically starts again next time they log into EU...

    Micro & Mini estate terminals:
    11. Estate terminal must have Red/Green indicator (Private/Public) and also a Yellow indicator for estates that are available for sale directly at the terminal.
    12. A Micro/Mini estate is rentable at the particular estate's terminal. (To avoid a flood at auction of state-owned rental properties...)
    13. These terminals should be wall mounted & flat on wall, near unit's door at shoulder level of the average avatar's height.
    14. The ID of estate (# or letter) should be clearly visible above the estate terminal.
    15. Avatars should be able to sell-back estate deed at terminal or from deed itself. (less 25% + less number of days used).
    16. Avatars can pay (10 ped ?) at estate terminal to increase the maximum number of avatars allowed into unit by 1.
    17. Also can pay (2.5 ped ?) to increase the maximum number of items limit placed/displayed by 1.
    18. Increases above are cumulative & last for as long as the avatar has that estate deed (but resets if deed's sold back or gone vagrant).

    How to let people know where your avatar resides?:
    19. Avatar's can choose to display their rental location above head in place of a profession???
    20. Avatar's automatically have their latest rental location in profile (with option to hide) for friends to have access too.
    21. The current estate would show under "Achievements", visible to others if the previously mention option to hide was not taken.
    22. Another ***"Achievement" for the avatars who did not visit estate for 3 months, and call it something funny like "Wandering Vagabond" or "Gone Vagrant".

    23. Suggested rental of Micro-estates (10 ped per month) and Mini-estates (225 ped per year)
    24. But avatars that have had either such estate deed before and got the Gone Vagrant achievement (let it lapse by being away for 3 months) would then automatically pay double the rate next time.

    What's the story behind these economical rental property'?
    25. They could be underground and just say an abandoned mine shaft was utilized by mining company into apartments to rent?
    Or a sink hole appeared in Celeste Harbor and city officials decided to utilize it by building apartments in it? etc.
    26. Must have TP close to complex's televator. (okay got that idea from Medusa & Monria apartments)
    27. Perhaps have up to 99 levels, to start with?
    28. Each level has 20 units each labeled A to Z. But don't use letters i, L, o, Q, S, U (to avoid numerical confusion)

    Pitfalls to avoid:
    30. Lastly: To avoid hoarders & "resellers" (ppl in chats offering to sell off "their property" so someone else can rent it... for a fee)
    31. An avatar can not hold more then one micro or mini estate deed at a time.
    32. And newly vacant estates will not be immediately available.
    Strongly suggest a random waiting period of 10 to 168 hours before the estate can be rented again.
    33. Do Not call the deeds for rental properties DEEDS, call them Anything else to avoid confusion for new players in chats... Agreements/Contracts/Titles/Transfers/Monthlies

    34. Don't raise rent above 10ped a month or you'll get a flood of empties and that would be too much programming for nothing.
    This is due to some existing properties can be purchase for 300ped or so. Oh none on Arkadia that I've seen, but they're out there.

    IMO it's better to get a trickle of small peds monthly from 100's of small players then 0 from all of them, plus 10 ped a month just to keep the apartment... hmm that might increase the number of small depo players.


    Q & A:
    Crazy ideas? Yes. [​IMG]
    Would this limit devaluation of shops and nice roomy wonderful estates with windows on picturesque area's? Well no one knows, but of all the crazy idea's I've pondered in regards to this concept for 2 days... I believe it just might.
    Will MA do it or let Ark Devs put this in motion? No, Nada, Never, Not a friggin chance! :wtf:
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