Sweat Welfare

As far as I understood by reading the ToU, Sweat is not affected by the change cause there is no statistical data about Sweat and specifically it regards the Auctions System, also, player to player trade doesn't affect the MU or sales statistics in any way ,

From the ToU: ". The foregoing includes, without limitations, the prohibition of manipulation or cause to manipulate statistical data, directly or indirectly. This prohibitions includes, without limitation, prohibition of price manipulation and/or price fixing regarding virtual items on the auction system."

In my opinion , With manipulation they mean all acts aimed to artificially raise or lower MU, so a Union of crafters trying to artificially raise auction prices would be against ToU for example. Buying/Selling Sweat doesn't affect the economy in any way for 2 simple reasons

1- Sweat can only be traded player to player
2- therefore there is no statistical data about Sweat sales/prices


I think that's how MA intended it , they probably want to protect the system from goods market manipulation, specifically the Auctions system .

 

Unless they have specifically excluded it (which I do not see anywhere in the terms), sweat is a part of the economy. So even though it is not included in the auction, it is included in that part of the terms "You may not interfere in any way with the virtual economy of Entropia Universe ... the auction system or any other trading system ... The foregoing includes, without limitations... This prohibitions includes, without limitation, prohibition of price manipulation and/or price fixing" etc. The "without limitations" phrase is key to their intention... it serves to stress that these are merely examples of prohibited behavior -- it is not saying that other manipulative behaviors are allowed. So, for example, they're perfectly within their rights to terminate anyone who manipulates the price of sweat, or other things that are traded but can't technically go to auction, like the cost of space flights, for instance.

I think they've kept the language vague because they're going to examine violations on a case-by-case basis and want the legal backing to do whatever they see fit at any time. Of course, any time you're making a trade or putting something on auction, you're affecting the economy of EU, and when you try to sell high or sell low, it could be said you're making a tiny interference in the normal working of the economy. In any case, I'm pretty sure MA was concerned with bigger things than the price of sweat when they made this rule.

 

Yes indeed too vague , it leaves space to interpretations , I don't really think anyways they would punish ppl for buying sweat high ...

If with ".. other trading system" they include player to player trade then I'm a bit concerned , I think it would be better for them to explain that further , the interpretation you give is far more strict than mine , I'm a bit concerned about the service taxi pilots provide , will it be forbidden cause technically we do that for profit ? I think I'll send a ticket and ask them for further info about that.

Also that's to be considered that players interfere with the economy daily by trying to earn profits.. so a strict interpretation of that pagraph would involve that trying to raise MU on an item is a violation of ToU cause they would interfere with the price ...

I'll send a ticket and ask for further information about this, I'll let you know what they say .

 

I suggest that you can offer pilot services for any fee u wish. But if you attempt to price fix the fee in cooperation with lots of other pilots then that is where u are likely to get pulled up.

You can attempt to sell p2p or via AH any price u want but if as recently happened on Caly, you try to come to a "gentlemans agreement" with a bunch of other traders on pricing of the commodity you are interested in then you are likely to get pulled up.

It's not really that complicated.

 

Yes , that's how I see it , yes that happened on Caly and still happens I think, about Taxis , coming to an agreement is probably the only one way to avoid undercutting eachother all the time .. since this probably no longer allowed , such agreements, if any, will cease to exist, that's why I'm sending the ticket , to ask info on the intended aim of that paragraph.

 

" prohibition of price manipulation and/or price fixing regarding virtual items on the auction system. "

It specifies virtual items on the uction system , I really think my first interpretation was right , all of this regards the Auction system specifically , so those prohibitions I'm quite sure don't apply to p2p trade or Sweat market .

 

The TOU clearly specifies auction house "or any other trading system". So its not just auctions. Use of "without limitations" means "plus anything else we want to add here" Doesnt always stand up in court but that's it's intent when it is used.

 

it says " You may not interfere in any way with the virtual economy of Entropia Universe and/or with other Participants’ ability to use or enjoy the auction system or any other trading system in Entropia Universe. "

It specifies that interfering with the ability of another player to use the Auction or any other trading system is prohibited ..

the rest of the paragraph only regards the Auction system , that specifically talks about Statistics so, the Auction system, "without limitations" leave a blank space for them to intervene in case of any other behavior which would result in an interference with the economy , probably they refer at ppl using bots or other accounts to take an economic advantage on other players but not just that, also buying tt stuff and reselling them at a MU might be one of those behaviors they would punish , also unions of players trying to raise MU at their advantage might be another behavior they disallow , just trying to reflect on the wider meaning of that paragraph.

 

good question Snape

 

It is a gray area, but I think it helps to look at it from the point of view of balance. Is the price balanced or equitable? Is it an equal trade of goods or services so that the two parties (buyer and seller) both profit from the exchange? or has the price been so inflated (or deflated) that one party is profiting from the exchange while the other is actually losing? This is the main problem with monopolies and such, they can become so powerful that the goods they're providing--while they may be necessary for the economy to work properly--are not really worth the price you have to pay. The other issue is that monopolies prevent the price from recovering because in stamping out competition other potential sellers are prevented from offering the service at a fairer price.

An example: when I was in Twin Peaks a few days ago, I was asked ("pressured" is more apt) by a pilot there to adopt their pricing scheme. There were about 5 or 6 quads waiting for passengers and I was charging less than the others. Now, in fairness, I was charging only 10 ped, which is below my standard price simply because I needed to get back to Ark ASAP, and that's what a flight was worth to me at the moment. But even on a normal day, the "fixed" prices they asked me to use would have given me an amount of profit that I felt would be unfair to my passengers (too high). I didn't like their pricing scheme because it not only sought to eliminate normal competition between pilots (which, as I read it, is against the EU terms), but it appeared that its only concern was to get as much profit as possible for the pilots. While I certainly understand the motivation for trying to fix a price for this service, the plan doesn't seem to take into account the concept of equitable trade... finding a balance between the seller's profit and offering a price as low as possible to the passenger. I try to find that balance, and I'd love it if the price of a quad flight could come down. Why? Because I want space to cost my passengers less.

Another issue with price fixing... take an inexperienced or reckless pilot who gets blown out of the sky every other trip... do I mind if he advertises the cheapest flight in the galaxy? Not at all. My passengers know I offer a very different kind of service and are happy to pay what it's worth. Most of my flights these days are from referrals I get from satisfied customers. Price fixing allows bad pilots to make the same profit as good pilots make, which is not at all fair to the passengers (or to the pilots!). Of course, one k of sweat is equal to one k of sweat no matter who sells it, so this particular issue is more relevant to services than to goods.

 

And keep in mind if you're not fond of undercuts, sweat isn't a high volume sport. No "one" person is going to alter the whole sweat market just because they want to get rid of theirs and not really concerned about the "how much". Again, this thread was only created to let those few that buy for 5ped/k on Ark(and only from non depoing noobies) that it's hurting the people that do actually buy sweat because they need it. And to label a thread "Sweat Welfare". Thats a funny name.

Offer whatever you want, it's helpful to the newbie. the problem is, when other sweaters are stuck with too much sweat and no buyers and need cash, they're going to offer it pretty cheap. But now they have to listen to these little ranting newbies about undercutting when the price is whatever someone will give u for it. It would save a lot of drama if someone is going to pay 7 ped for sweat that they tell the person that that's not the normal price. dont get mad at ppl for selling it for less

I agree that that's not right Neil. This is a free trade economy, so if all pilots had the same price......lol. Besides, can u fly a 100 ppl at once? It's 1 fare. One. So you may get to go first, so what. Then they can wait for a fare to pick them by which Ava has the prettiest name or somethin lol.
this was in reply to something way back down the list. read something while i wasnt logged in..........