TRADERS! A misconception!

Hello Fellow Arkadians

There has been an issue that has been bothering me since i signed up here at entropia and i must say more specificly arkadia and thought it needed discusing....

As a trader myself im growing a little tired of the bad name traders get here at Entropia for a number of reasons, but the main reason is that this misconception of the trader is slowing down the economy especialy here on arkadia and this misunderstand is spreading like wild fire right now, there isnt a session now that i dont see someone talking complete trash about traders and how they are ripping people off, so basicly im here to open a discussion on this subject and hopefully change the way that traders are looked upon.....

The Root of the problem IMO starts with the fact we are dealing with a real money economy here in EU, this strait away instills a sence of "That guy just robbed me of x amount of cents".... so let me clear this up right now with the fact that 999999999.99% of EU avatars WILL LOOSE in EU, it has to work this way for EU to exist and fund the development of EU.

Everyday day we all log in all the miner's and hunters except that you can drop X amout of ped and the loose on the return thats just life here and has to be exepted by the population, Those that dont exept this play for a while and leave bitching, so we will just assume that we all except this fact ...

The Second thing is UNDERSTANDING MU!!!!, this is the part that really chaps my ass, the number of people i see in this game that 1. go on DAILY MU .. 2. think that they should/can get that value for there items. so let me explain in the hope we can clear this up....

1. DAILY MU

This isnt a very precise way to look at the MU value on most items, simply because the stats for the D/MU could be pulled from 1 person buying the item at higher OR lower than the average MU, this is more-so on items that are not sold in the 1000s, its just like a football players stats.... if player 1.. has played 2 games and scored once his score % is 50% does that make him better or worse than player 2... who has played 100 games and scored 48 times??? the answer is neither!!!! because there simply isnt enough data on the first player to get a clear picture, player 1.. could go on to be a superstar and have a scrore % of 98% or he could be the biggest donkey to hit the field 50 years WE JUST DONT KNOW!! because the data isnt there.. and the same applies here...

Its mutch better to look at the weekly as there is a lot more data there to give a clear picture, if the daily MU has lots of data 9x outa 10 you will notice its pretty much the same as the weekly give a nats fart here and there, so please dont always go by the D/MU its just not detailed enough and its only YOU that will loose out on it so do yourself a favour and use weekly MU stats to get a better picture of the market value....

2.Whats it Really worth?

This is where it gets interesting, please bear in mind that we are talking stackables here, singular items run at a slightly different basis, so we are taliking your lootable stackables ores/skins EnMatters that kinda stuff...

99999.99% of the data that you get from MU is that item sold in BULK quantities, meaning that people are paying at auction around this figure... so when you come back of your mining trip and you have 30 kaz please dont think that its worth top MU or if anyone offers to buy it from you that you can expect that %, this is where people need to really understand the idea of the complex economy here in EU....

The MU of any stackable is after auction fees witch are added to the sellers price most of the time and as i say 999999.99% in bulk (in 1000s)... now your 30 kaz is not worth the MU shown IN THOSE QUANTITIES.... the only way your going to get anywere near that is if your lucky enough to know a crafter who will keep meeting with you and buying your 30 kaz and other loot but even he wont want to pay top MU as he can just go to auction and buy in the quantites he needs (we are talking thousands here) at possibly a better MU its just not worth the hassle keep mucking around buying your bits at FULL MU.... he may as well go to auction buy what he needs or put up an order, as he isnt always crafting with the same mats, so unless he has ped to burn your out of luck.... now im not saying these relationships dont exist because they do but there very VERY rare and its not simply walk up to him and sell your loot at full MU...

Now im not saying you cannot get your top wack MU, but if you do want that % or anywhere close to it then you better invest some ped so you can fund your hunting/mining runs and build on those stacks untill you get a decent stack size (500 min *refined) and put it through auction yourself footing the auction fees and sale price % at auction, its a prety simple concept...

But all is not lost you can list your 30 kaz on auction AS IS!!! thats right folks and ive get even better news its normaly runs at at a mutch higher % in smaller numbers grate huh? well not when you talking about selling a couple of ped worth of stackables and your have a 0.5 ped charge for listing it AND the chances of you selling that small amount is a LOT lower than selling it in large quantities at the going MU, this is for the same reason your very lucky to find a crafter to buy your bits on the street..... why would he buy lots of small amounts at a hiked MU??? there are only very few circumstances this will happen I.E hes just finishing off a run of a given BP and needs justa small amount of a given mat.... thats it! no other reason... so by all means list your small amounts of loot and sit there for a week with no mining/hunting because your waiting for ll that juicy ped to come in from top MU only to find out you havent sold a bean but you got a nice 0.5 ped auction charge....

THE TRADER (THE EVIL ONE!!!)

Yes the trader.... the Theif... the rip off merchent.... the guy who laughs in your face while he STEALS your hard earned ped...

first of all we need to place the trader... where does he sit in the economy?

Miners/Hunters
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Traders
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Crafters/Tailers
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Again if you are able to fund your hunting/mining and are in a possition to accumalate large stacks then auction it off your self or find a crafter and sell directly to him, IM TELLING YOU this is the best way and im a trader! you will make more ped but depending on the terms of the relationship you may still be stuck with other types of loot as it depends what mats the crafter is looking to buy... if you get a crafter who is willing to buy ALL at a couple of % bellow MU you look after him lke your own child! as buisness relationships like this are very hard to come by, But for most of us here in EU we need to turn our ped around quickly and do what you come to EU to do, mining/hunting what ever... so lets recap on our options

1. deposit a decent lump of RL cash into EU to fund about a weeks worth of mining/hunting and sell your loot at auction at the full MU (and be prepared to wait a few days for it to sell also)

2. List your small stacks on auction, wait several days and hope they sell @ hiked MU or your left with a 0.5 ped auction charge for non sale...

3. list your small stacks on auction at averge MU and loose out bigtime with auction fees (0.5 ped is a lot out of 4 ped worth of mat)

4. Find a crafter who will buy all you loot (buying only given items is no good a few ped here and there wont fund your next mining trip...

5. Sell it to the trade terminal :soangry:

6. OMG Sell to a trader (cue evil music).....

So why a trader?

1. A trader will give you a % of the MU on your loot...
2. he will buy ALL your loot not just what he needs
3. No waiting about you drop your loot cycle your peds and your off mining/hunting again

Now this is where people get all hot and bothered...... "this item is worth this % and your offering me this %" well read above again and go get your top MU i have NOOOOOOOOOOO problem with that infact i even advise it, but if your not willing to any of the above please stop bitching that traders are ripping you off...

people need to understand that MOST traders provide a service. they are NOT i repeat NOT!!! just cheaky ass avatars who want to rip you a new one so they dont have to pay the going MU....

So given our options above selling to a trader is by far the best option... but people just carnt get there heads around selling there stuff to another human for less than the % they see in the window, and some would rather TT there stuff than sell it to a trader... all this does is HIKE prices and hold back the economy, its called cutting of your own nose to spite your face... its stupid... your costing yourself ped by loosing at the TT and costing yourself further down the economical road by hiking prices.... its moronic!....

people are under this anal idea that a TRADER... look at the name here "TRADER" should buy in at MU :huh:.... what planet are some of you off? but thats just the one side of our trade... what about selling our large stacks of stuff?...

well by the time we have refined the stacks and put it though auction with auction fees and auction fees on sale price the profit isnt really anything to run around screaming about trust me... but then we can always sell to crafters or street sales right? correct... but let me tell you a little story that puts ALLLLLLL this into percpective.....

the other day a guy came up to me asking if i had a specifc ingots to sell.... now these ingots i had ear marked for another customer who buys specific ingots from me once a week, but knowing i had a few days grace before he would be contacting me i thought i would sell these on now, knowing i could replace them for my regular customer... so i went in with my price which was slightly under the MU.... and do you know what the guy said????? your going to like this....

"But thats MU/Auction Price, normally when i deal with traders they are a few % under MU"


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Now i actualy agree with the guy.. i just went in high as i had the ingots ear marked and for me to sell em now i wanted a better price, but yea i agree with him.... so why in gods name does everyone want me or all traders to BUY @ MU but sell UNDER MU......after refining the damn stuff ?!?!?!?!?!?!

so what you are all saying is what a trader should be is this.......


1.depo large amounts of cash....
2.buy your bits and bobs @ DAILY MU ..... ohh and a tip ofcorse
3.refine it
4.stockpile this stuff for weeks
5.sell it BELLOW MU

im sorry but this is moronic... and im growing somewhat tired of traders being looked upon as thieves basicly......

i agree there are some traders out there who offer silly % or just go for the highly valuable stackables.... well let me give you a few tips....

if ANYONE is asking for a specific item its worth more.... end of story...

say trader 1. will buy all your goods but trader 2 is only after a few of those goods you need to be asking a higher price from trader 2... as he's only after specified items.. a REAL trader will buy everything within his area of trade.... I.E mining loot/hunting loot... its only common sence......

the other thing is if a trader offers you silly % say 105% on a 150% item then you know what? dont trade with him lol its quite simple... traders make there living off reputation, traders with a reputation of of that kind wont be trading for long because everyone will just go somewhere else.... just because there is a trader there doesnt mean you MUST trade with him... its a choice! take it ot leave it, if your getting ripped off there is only one person to blame....... YOU!!!...

at the end of the day. traders are a VITAL part of the economy and drives prices down within the economy.... being a hard faced idiot who simply refuses to sell there items at bellow MU because they dont understand how MU works and what the real worth of somthing is destroy the economy and hold back the game and more importantly ARKADIA ATM witch is by far the best planet IMO....

so please people.... please.... understand that traders are not cheaky little so and so's who want to rip you off we do provide and service and a vital one at that.... without us crafters cannot do there thing at a affordable price and no crafters means your loot is worth NOTHING BUT TT VALUE.....

its up to you folks....

 

LMAO!! thats half my coffee sprayed all over my new monitor.thx..lol...

 

I'm mostly on board with Craticus here. Traders get a bad rep and without them Arkadia would really struggle.
There are some negative aspects that I'll discuss later in the post.

As a crafter I usually don't buy from low level miners. I need large amounts of specific resources, not small amounts of umpteen different resources. (I dont buy hunting loot at all because I hunt a lot - though this could change with the new weapon bps including animal parts).

I mostly source my ores/enmatter from auction or direct from high level miners and traders because they sell in bulk and usually I want a reasonable quantity of a material. When I buy one or two materials from high level miners or traders I usually look at Weekly MU and aim to pay a little under that. As we are building a relationship we both aim to provide good value to foster repeat business.

I occasionally buy from random people in Quarry, either because they respond to my buy spam or I respond to theirs. Again, weekly MU is the main guide here. I also look at auction. You know I wont pay more than the price I would need to pay there.

I also get unsolicited trade requests. People dump a bunch of different material in the trade window and ask what I will pay. Often there are only a few ped TT involved, perhaps as much as 100 ped. In that situation I am going to offer a blanket rate for the lot based on a quick inspection of where the majority of the TT value is coming from. I don't want to screw around calculating individual MU's and prices when the likely outcome is a difference of a few pec. It's not worth my playing time. Sometimes if there is a particularly valuable resource then I might do a separate offer for that. eg: "x% for the lidacon and y% for everything else".
If you don't like the rate I am offering, that's ok. I didn't ask to trade with you and I probably don't really need much of the stuff you are selling.

So you can see that as a low level miner you probably aren't going to get a super rate from me, if I am willing to buy at all. Traders are your answer to avoiding the TT and lets face it, any MU is better than TT rate.
Traders are also good for me assuming we can agree on a rate that allows me to craft cost effectively. And then I can sell my weapons to you guys for a reasonable rate.

However there is also a dark side to trading. Scenarios that bug me include:
Trader buys a large quantity at reduced MU and then immediately sells that same quantity at significant profit.
Trader scans auction and buy's everything that has BO less than the MU he wants and then relists at new BO.

It's not against the rules and the trader is just looking for opportunities to make a profit but I don't think the trader is adding value or providing a service. We do see this happening on Arkadia from time to time. If I notice some is doing this a lot then I look to avoid buying from that person.

 

worth a read even tho I don't agree with everything, but here is what I want to ask.

Whats your avatar name?
working with reputation I think it would be nice to incl that in your forum profile

 

I find a trader has to have a thick skin. If everyone is flaming you then your prices are most likely bad. If the people who are trading with you keep coming back and spreading the word about you then you're probably doing well. If you're only trading with noobs and experienced players never trade with you, it's a bad sign. Try to explain to the trader-haters and those who think you ought to pay-to-trade about supply and demand and how many hours you're putting in and share your profit margin with them. Most of them have never done what you're doing so they don't understand what trading even involves. Most of them either have a philosophical aversion to making a profit in the game, or they're bitter because they lost so many peds themselves... or whatever.

As long as you're providing a genuine service and your trades are fair to all parties, then you don't have to feel bad about trading.... in fact, it's a good thing.

 

does anyone really object to traders? its obvious they provide a service, and the "work" is boring, what people object to are parasites, i think that word is technically most correct, they prey on the weak, those without knowledge or money, they offer ridicules prices and charge above market, or they look to make huge profits at any costs, they will use words like "fair market value", or "caly prices and arkadian prices" depending on if they are buying or selling, they will wreck markets for a profit, they are liers, liers for profit, and in the end cant be trusted.

i am not bitter about losses, or have a aversion to people making a profit, but parasites preying on the weak is a problem in entropia, and it is obviously very detrimental to the game, you just have to go to any populated area and wait a bit to see them, sitting there waiting for people to return from their runs, with losses, and take as big a slice as they can, feeding on the desperation..

and this is why some people might get the impression that i hate traders, but, i dont, i hate parasites.

 

It's all subjective. The issue is how big a "slice" is acceptable. To many, taking a 3% slice is being a parasite. In other words, all traders are parasites according to someone's definition. When I am trading, I actually encounter a number of people who tell me, in all seriousness, that I ought to be buying their materials for more than market value or more than what I sell them for. Buy high, sell low, they consider anything less as cheating them.

 

All markup is artificial, daily, weekly, monthly... It's all pixels on a server. That's why clds really aren't the smartest buy in the universe even though roi seems great. There's a good chance that the participants will wake up in the not-too-distant future and realize that an mmo is an addiction more so than anything else and there is no investments in a video game. There are only people taking, taking, taking... doesn't matter if it's traders, Mindark, planet partner, LA owner with taxes, etc. ... so whole game is in very big danger of collapsing all together in the next 5-10 years. It might not happen, but like all things, there's a chance it could happen.

Solution to this:

Miners/Hunters
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Traders
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Crafters/Tailers
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is this:

Miners/Hunters
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Crafters/Tailers
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but most don't have the time to do that so they end up with traders being middle men... it's that simple.

problem that creates surplus is what causes traders to exist. eventually people will realize that they don't need to create the surplus... especially if they are loosing cash as they do so over time. as surplus dwindles, prices get higher, amount of buyers get lower... CRASH! It may take a while for it to happen, but it's going to happen eventually I suspect.

Soon after all of the crack addicts in an area get rehab and stay off of the stuff the local dealers go out of business (traitors), and eventually the kingpins (PP and Mindark) do too. Just a matter of time til it happens.

 

I didn't read the OP since it's too long (yes, shame on me)

I just want to point out that traders are the way for arkadia to move forward.

As a crafter i usually get bored of arkadia within a day because auction is empty and i don't want to stand at tp's begging for ores.Street traders allow me to continue crafting for a second day.

As a hunter/miner i prefer getting 1% markup over getting nothing, if i don't have the patience or high enough stacks to put on auction i'm happy there are traders.

Why should I care if they make money? Both when buying and when selling to a trader i am happy with the price i get, because the alternative is a lot worse.

 

You're forgetting that as supply dwindles, markup rises which causes more players hunt and mine for those resources because they become very profitable. It balances itself out. We can experience this balancing happen in real time in EU, especially after VUs when resource supply and demand are changed by new items/bps being released... at least, you would experience it if you were an active crafter, miner or higher level hunter.

 

it is subjective but with some of it it is obvious where the difference lies, and of course in the honesty of information supplied by the trader when buying and selling. some obvious ones to me would see to be:
buy low "because its arkadia" but then sell high "because its arkadia", both in private trade, no external costs or fees
or
130% is a fair market price for arkoins, while listing them at 165% while they are selling like hotcakes at 185%.

in these cases there are little risks, hardly any work, no transporting of goods for sale on other planets, no auction fees to pay. where the is the service, other than lining the pocket of the "trader" at any cost?
i think these are more the kind of example where people would feel cheated after the fact, and might consider leaving the planet, or the game.

 

People need to understand that they have the responsibility to take decisions on their own and to do the necessary research, or have the option to not do it and possibly sell for less then they could have got.

leaving a planet based on this I think is kinda shortsighted and don't happen that often if at all really...

 

Although Traders do provide a vital turnover to the long-session player, and I don't hate "Traders":

I stopped reading the informative original post when the discussion on Daily MU started (Yes that early).

Here's why:


Firstly, Daily MU really is what a participant is willing to pay for it on the day. That means the weekly MU can trend downwards, or upwards. Saying that "A player has only bought 2 units of a 50ped stckable for 150%, whereas the guy who bought 100 units at 148%..." Economies DO NOT work like that, for all the seller knows the item is out of demand or hardly ever drops, the variation of the MU on the day is a better indicator than weekly.

A Buyer might review Weekly, the seller might review Daily. So what happens in this situation? A: You check the "graphs" - the blue line representing sales is a guide as to what someone like Kikki (props on the guns emporium) will pay for a "Batch". If you look at Carabok Hide graphs you can see the trends, there are sales of 10ped and upwards for 120-150%, then a big spike where the stack is highest in a single day, and so is the MU.

Most would think that a trader has bought low and sold high, playing for free and costing the participant more than the simple "10% of your activity is our running costs" MA declare. How to differentiate? If there are repeated spikes in the monthly data, there is a trader, if it is the only spike in months someone bought too high.

Lastly, I think if you want to be a successful and respected trader you need to handle sales all the time, if you are online for one hour a day you aren't a trader (long term service) you are an entrepreneur (profit seeking).

So how does this explain me refusing to read the rest of the post? OP stated point blank most leisure players "WILL LOSE". Firstly you usually get a lot of little green skill increases that could potentially equate to your loss. Secondly - trading is the single most reliable way to profit and as such it is never a squeeky clean operation when the trader offers rebuttal on the forums as an OP. Any player is either in equilibrium with their customers or the player is just trying to handcuff them to the back of his/her van.


Middle managers are "Service Industry" if you lack the basics that you can get on a Level 2 National Vocational Qualification in Customer Service like (sorry) the original post, you'd be bad company.

As a note, traders gain my respect if they stand around with PED to alternate your regimen. Otherwise, you might as well work out what you will lose and try to establish sales to meet that loss, with the same dramatic effect from the crowd. Otherwise treat every deposit as lost and stack up your storage, realise the gains later.

(Contrary to the above the remainder of the original post may or may not have made interesting reading, no malice towards the original poster is intended)

 

In your example, people are buying arkoins for 146% on auction. If they're reselling them on auction, they'll be listing them at 160-165%. There is, in fact, a service provided by these players: they act as a ped reserve. They tie up their own peds in arkoins so that other players who want to sell Arkoins can go mine, craft, or hunt, instead of having all their ped stuck in arkoins. Also, you say there is no work or cost involved in this kind of activity. I can only assume you've not spent a lot of time trading or you've forgotten what it involves (namely, a lot of peds and time). The arkoin traders are investing a significant amount of peds for a 109% return. If it does not provide a service, why would anyone ever buy or sell to them?

 

What? Sorry can't agree with this. Buy cheap on auction, relist on auction, then they are serving no one but themselves.

 

Well it also helps newcomers who might actually try to sell below the 130% they were orignally listed at. But i thought we were talking about traders and not auction resellers? (now you've almost made me read the entire OP )

 

Arkoins isn't the best example since it's a somewhat active market. But it's still true. You have to think of it from the perspective of a player who does not himself have a large ped reserve. Say you are a player who has 200 ped worth of arkoins and no peds on the ped card. You log in and want to play. The options are:

1) depo
2) list your arkoins on auction at 165%, wait around for them to sell, log off, come back tomorrow, only to possibly find that arkoins have now gone down to 160%, pull auction and relist, go back to sleep, etc.
3) find a trader buying arkoins: stand around the quarry for several hours hoping a buyer comes along before you have to log out
4) list the arkoins at 146%, get the cash immediately, go buy ammo or probes and play

Now can you see that there is a service rendered?

Buying from auction and selling on auction is a form of trading.

 

A smarter move for the original seller is to set SB at 140, BO at 165 or higher. Some days it can take a few days for auction sales to go through but you get your money. If you are using auction you need to be able to deal with the 7 day pipeline. If you can't, then once again traders are probably a good option for you.